Consequences of playing "EVIL" races

[Umbran]

But then you admit that an intelligence predisposed to evil is not necessarily incongruous

There are ways we could imagine having a type of creature who has free will, but is pretty universally evil.

Let us imagine, for example, that Freudian psychology had some validity - it is simplified model, with issues, but will work descriptively for our purposes. Very, very roughly, we have a model with an Id - the instincts, Ego - understanding of reality, and the Superego - the morality.

Now, imagine a creature who, in that framework, had a massively underdeveloped superego. They understand, for example a certain kind of morality with regards to rearing of young of their own species, but that's about it. Or, imagine a creature that is physically/neuro-biologically incapable of anything more than proximal empathy - if you are not one of its best buddies, it is fundamentally incapable of registering that you have emotions or feelings of your own.

This is the model of evil as something a human would call a psychological limitation or cognitive deficit. The thing has full ability to choose, but there are some ideas that simply don't occur to it - it never occurs to an orc that your pain is worth consideration. It can still plan and be intelligent and choose, based on its own needs and desires. But your needs and desires is it simply not capable of caring about.

The result, from a human point of view, might be a sort of violent sociopathy, which in game terms we might just call Evil.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I'd like to address a double-standard that seems to occur on a lot of threads like this:

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?

Because orcs are people, in every meaningful way. It's much easier to "otherise" things which don't closely resemble us.

Orcs are warm-blooded bipeds who have anatomies and intelligences comparable with humans. They have culture, language. They need to eat and sleep. They are mortal. They are not specially imbued with supernatural power. They are interfertile with humans. There is nothing in any version of the rules to suggest that they are automata, incapable of choice.

The question of "why are orcs evil?" must necessarily provoke an in-game or in-world rationale. Why are orcs evil? This often leads to the notion of some primeval, mythic event which "made them that way." Essentially, a "Curse of Ham" or its fictive equivalent.

 

[Bohandas]

They are interfertile with humans.

So are demons and red dragons

There is nothing in any version of the rules to suggest that they are automata, incapable of choice.

There's nothing in the rules to suggest any of the other things that I mentioned are either. (with the possible exception of beholders).

Not that this has anything to do with whether they can be predisposed to evil or not. One would have to have a very limited imagination indeed to think that a humanlike psyche is the only kind of sentient intelligence that can exist

 

[Umbran]

So are demons and red dragons

Well, that still leaves you with the other points. Mortal, same basic anatomy and physical needs, not generally imbued with supernatural power...

 

[Sepulchrave II]

So are demons and red dragons

Why not consider the other reasons for similarity between orcs and humans - which I explained - rather than try and tease some incongruity from one sentence?

 

[Celebrim]

Why not consider the other reasons for similarity between orcs and humans - which I explained - rather than try and tease some incongruity from one sentence?

Because they aren't particularly strong points. They strike me as someone who already wants to draw a particular conclusion, and so is cherry picking evidence to support it.

For example, you cite something like this as if you hit upon a strong point: "They are interfertile with humans." The emphasis is yours.

But in the setting, people are potentially interfertile with cows, swans, dragons, demons and trees. In myth and fantasy, pretty much anything crosses with anything else. We have no guarantee of a fantasy setting being a scientific biological world. And in Warhammer, for example, orcs are sentient algae. So yeah, there is that.

Moreover, when you say things like this: "It's much easier to "otherise" things which don't closely resemble us.", you are actually undermining your own argument. If it is easier to otherise things that don't closely resemble us, then surely you are guilty of the reverse - humanizing something just because it has an incidental resemblance to us. How much the look like humans has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are actually people. What makes something people isn't appearance.

But beyond that, you aren't even addressing the question. You say something like, "There is nothing in any version of the rules to suggest that they are automata, incapable of choice." But of course there wouldn't be, because there are really no rules for this except alignment, which you are discounting as a valid rule. The actual suggestion regarding how evil or how invariably evil they are wouldn't be found in any crunch but alignment, but in the flavor text. And the flavor text of orcs per canon is that they are the creation of Gruumsh, the unblinking god of conquest and destruction who drives his followers to kill. It's not impossible that a deity might have creations that don't reflect the nature of the deity, but one particularly note worthy aspect of orcishness is that there are no orc gods of good in most canon pantheons. The dwarves, elves, gnomes and humans were created and bestowed with gifts by both good and evil deities, but all the creators of orcs are evil and incarnate destructive ideologies of conquest and killing. So, while there is room for suggesting that orcs have free will, there is also room for suggesting that they are heavily predisposed to evil, or that they are invariably evil. There is no "curse of Ham" required here.

Once again, you are determined to see orcs as Africans, and it is you that are therefore equating Africans with orcs. You are the one determined to see black people in monstrous terms, and determined to identify orcs with Africans. Not the people you are addressing.

It's a weak argument and it's a racist argument.

 

[Bohandas]

Orcs are warm-blooded ... have ... intelligences comparable with humans. They have culture, language ... They are interfertile with humans. There is nothing in any version of the rules to suggest that they are automata, incapable of choice.

These also apply to demons and red dragons. Additionally the dragons need to eat and sleep and demons are bipeds more often than not (and many of the low-end demons lack magical powers).

 

[Sepulchrave II]

@Celebrim, please try to read my words without ascribing motives to me.

Because they aren't particularly strong points. They strike me as someone who already wants to draw a particular conclusion, and so is cherry picking evidence to support it.

The question was

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?

My answer was that "because orcs closely resemble humans in various meaningful dimensions such as..." Keep in mind that this is about the reason why people have a problem with orcs being predisposed toward evil.

For example, you cite something like this as if you hit upon a strong point: "They are interfertile with humans." The emphasis is yours.

But in the setting, people are potentially interfertile with cows, swans, dragons, demons and trees. In myth and fantasy, pretty much anything crosses with anything else.

Right. But half-cows, half-swans and half-trees aren't hardwired into the game. Half-demons and half-dragons are marginal, at best.

The point is that it is another point of connection with humans. Orcs don't appear to require any supernatural power or shapeshifting to procreate with humans.

We have no guarantee of a fantasy setting being a scientific biological world. And in Warhammer, for example, orcs are sentient algae. So yeah, there is that.

Moreover, when you say things like this: "It's much easier to "otherise" things which don't closely resemble us.", you are actually undermining your own argument. If it is easier to otherise things that don't closely resemble us, then surely you are guilty of the reverse - humanizing something just because it has an incidental resemblance to us.

Orcs are not real. They are a function of our imagination.

Given that the question was How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, the answer to the question is framed as the reason that people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil.

How much the look like humans has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are actually people.

No, it has a bearing on the reason that people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil.

But beyond that, you aren't even addressing the question.

Yes, I am. The question was How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil

You say something like, "There is nothing in any version of the rules to suggest that they are automata, incapable of choice." But of course there wouldn't be, because there are really no rules for this except alignment, which you are discounting as a valid rule.

Where have I evinced any opinion about alignment?

And the flavor text of orcs per canon is that they are the creation of Gruumsh, the unblinking god of conquest and destruction who drives his followers to kill...[snip] There is no "curse of Ham" required here.

The mythic particulars describing the aetiology of orcs are unimportant. The fact that their status is rooted in some mythic event, or has an irremediable divine cause, is the point.

Once again, you are determined to see orcs as Africans

Interesting. Where have I expressed this opinion? Perhaps you might point it out? Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

and it is you that are therefore equating Africans with orcs. You are the one determined to see black people in monstrous terms, and determined to identify orcs with Africans. Not the people you are addressing.

Er...right.

It's a weak argument and it's a racist argument.

Sure. If you say so.

 

[Bohandas]

Interesting. Where have I expressed this opinion? Perhaps you might point it out? Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

I think it was when you invoked the Curse of Ham, and implicitly equated orcs' alignment listing with the antiabolitionist conspiracy theories which surrounded the Curse of Ham during the 19th century. (Assuming of course that you're referring to the incident from the Book of Genesis and not the unrelated incident from S2E9 of Invader Zim.)

 

[Helldritch]

Wow reading through all of this was... confusing to say the least.

Evil is evil. In our modern world, we tend to apply our "enlightenment" to medieval, stone age or whatever we look at. In a world where gods exists, demons can walk the world, devils try to steal your soul with a contract can you really say that a race that has a whole pantheon of evil gods isn't evil itself?

Orcs are such a race, goblinoids too. Gnolls are demonically bred (now). Place yourself in the place of the poor commoner who sees an orc horde coming his way. He will not say: "Poor you! You are so misunderstood. People are so racists towards you. Let me give you a hug to bring you joy!" Nope, the commoner knows that if he does not fight or flee, he is dead. If he is lucky, he will die quickly. If not, he will be tortured and sacrificed to one of the orcish gods and so will his family.

The removal of the evil tag on some races comes from our modern view of our world. We live in a world of grey area and we want to put it in our games. We firmly believe in redemption but sometimes, redemption is only a wish. Some things are evil to the core. Races with only evil gods are such a thing. In fantasy world where said races have other gods or share the gods of the other races, then you can have a variety of alignment in said races. These worlds are not my cup of tea as I prefer worlds where evil is evil and good is good. No gray area (or only occasionally). Only a black and white view of the world. This make the heroes' job that much easier when there is no moral hassles. Evil races were put there by evil gods out of jealousy. I encourage you to read the history of the Orc Pantheons in the various God and Demi-gods books over the editions. The history in the MToF about orcs and goblinoids is also very enlightening.

I know that racism is a delicate subject in our modern world. I don't like racism and sexism any more than anyone here. But in a fantasy setting, these are tools to be used to create stories. I have three female players and their martial characters are great. One is in the second group and plays a Half Orc paladin. She faces racism all the time. But she rose in level and in fame. Her name is sang by bards all over the kingdom of Furyondy as the slayer of Kharak the High priest of the Ancient Iuz. She fought the views of others and overcame their views and found a place in their hearts. Use these as tools to further stories. You'll see.