Consequences of playing "EVIL" races

[Umbran]

This is a change in topic, but I don't see how it relevant.

No, it isn't a change in topic.

Bohandas said, "I'd like to address a double-standard that seems to occur on a lot of threads like this:

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?"

The "people" in question aren't characters in the game. They are the real-world people writing in threads. So, we are talking about the biases of real-world people, not in game people.

Then, the fact we humans do tend to identify more with things we recognize as more close to ourselves does come into play. Whether someone in a myth chose to lay with a bull is not material.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Sometimes I'm down for "don't think about it games", and more often I'm interested in games that make me think about how the fictional world works. That may be influenced by being strongly introverted and sometimes only being able to get my brain to shut up for a second by going for a walk in nature or doing something that pushes other ideas to the back.

I think in general, most people play fantasy games as a slightly more enlightened pseudo-middle ages. Sure, some of the psuedo-medieval nastiness still happens. Some of us think of the fictional denizens of such worlds as at least a little bit smarter than their historical equivalents. Especially with things like magic, gods, and such being provable concepts.

 

[Celebrim]

No, it isn't a change in topic.

Bohandas said, "I'd like to address a double-standard that seems to occur on a lot of threads like this:

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?"

The "people" in question aren't characters in the game. They are the real-world people writing in threads. So, we are talking about the biases of real-world people, not in game people.

Then, the fact we humans do tend to identify more with things we recognize as more close to ourselves does come into play. Whether someone in a myth chose to lay with a bull is not material.

Ok, well, now I see at least where you are going there.

The problem I run into here is that to answer Bohandas question in the way I think is true is going to involve ascribing motives to people. And there is a limit to how far I think I can "get away" with that before you are going to red text me, especially considering how quickly you've leaped to accuse me of that in the thread.

So I can only address your challenge at a superficial level, and ask why is it that people are disposed to see orcs as close to ourselves on the basis of shape and not demons? Or why is it that they are more disposed to see orcs as more like us than ghouls, even though ghouls literally are us? Or basically, why has the conception of orcs in particular evolved to have more human traits than their origin as the evil twisted fairy minions of Satanic dark lords might suggest? In other places we've discussed how ghouls could be humanized into a species that was basically good and not monstrous, while still retaining ghoulish appearance and habits? Why didn't that catch on as a very common way to think about ghouls?

I've touched on one possible answer to that by looking at the humanization of Klingons in Star Trek, from their more simple conception as a proudly evil people. But, I didn't really explain the basic issue there - why was it when Klingons were humanized they were made more explicitly space orcs? I've also touched on this by noting that World of Warcraft, from it's origins in Warcraft, found itself needing to make humans and orcs peers, and so needed to humanize orcs. But to go much further than that is going to risk breaking board rules or turning the argument explosive and then getting it shut down.

Fundamentally, I have very little problems with humanizing orcs, provided that it's done in a fashion that doesn't equate them with real world racial groups (something I find distasteful). If you want orcs to be a species of people in your world, then that's just fine. I've done something similar with goblins myself, and I'm fully happy to discuss in detail how I choose to balance the personhood of individual goblins with the overtly monstrous nature of them as a species. One thing I certainly do not do is equate goblins with real world human racial groups, which I would find to be well, racist.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Mod Note:

Okay, I know how this makes the disucssion difficult, but, we have rules against discussion of real-world religion on these boards. While I understand how real-world models are great examples, let us please confine our discussion to gaming as much as possible. Thanks, all.

In no way an accusation or complaint against you Umbran, but I will be asking in the Meta board for explicit rules on this no religion policy. The ban, is not universally enforced, and thus capricious.

see this thread :IRL nominations (historically classic ie religious, pantheonic, folkloric, no newer than 1600) for mythical cosmologies you enjoy including in d&d.

In the thread I referenced above, people are literally voting about their favorite religion.

Yet an example that uses the concept of non violence from two ideological perspectives both from the Indian Sub Continent, general information one might find from a basic comparative religion class is worthy of admonishment?

The board standard is not enforced universally, and thus capricious.

 

[Bohandas]

In no way an accusation or complaint against you Umbran, but I will be asking in the Meta board for explicit rules on this no religion policy. The ban, is not universally enforced, and thus capricious.

Oh god! Don't ask for that! you're gonna turn the board into a clone of Giant In The Playground where they're not even allowed to discuss mythology because at some point they decided it counts as religion and it stuck, forever.

You ask for that and you're gonna get the rule cemented rather than relaxed.

 

[Panda-s1]

I'd like to address a double-standard that seems to occur on a lot of threads like this:

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?

So are demons and red dragons



There's nothing in the rules to suggest any of the other things that I mentioned are either. (with the possible exception of beholders).

Not that this has anything to do with whether they can be predisposed to evil or not. One would have to have a very limited imagination indeed to think that a humanlike psyche is the only kind of sentient intelligence that can exist

I mean, arguments about humanoids and non-sapient creatures aside, I personally find Red Dragons=EVIL kinda lame. I mean they are very magical creatures, so w/e, but I also they are very intelligent beings so I see no reason why some of them can't decide to be good or evil or whatever alignment the MM says they're supposed to be.

Wow reading through all of this was... confusing to say the least.

Evil is evil. In our modern world, we tend to apply our "enlightenment" to medieval, stone age or whatever we look at. In a world where gods exists, demons can walk the world, devils try to steal your soul with a contract can you really say that a race that has a whole pantheon of evil gods isn't evil itself?

orcs have like, what, one god? it feels like the "evil" races just have the one god who created them and therefore they "have to" be evil.

Orcs are such a race, goblinoids too. Gnolls are demonically bred (now). Place yourself in the place of the poor commoner who sees an orc horde coming his way. He will not say: "Poor you! You are so misunderstood. People are so racists towards you. Let me give you a hug to bring you joy!" Nope, the commoner knows that if he does not fight or flee, he is dead. If he is lucky, he will die quickly. If not, he will be tortured and sacrificed to one of the orcish gods and so will his family.

okay how is that different from human raiders coming to town?

The removal of the evil tag on some races comes from our modern view of our world. We live in a world of grey area and we want to put it in our games. We firmly believe in redemption but sometimes, redemption is only a wish. Some things are evil to the core. Races with only evil gods are such a thing.

why?

In fantasy world where said races have other gods or share the gods of the other races, then you can have a variety of alignment in said races. These worlds are not my cup of tea as I prefer worlds where evil is evil and good is good. No gray area (or only occasionally). Only a black and white view of the world. This make the heroes' job that much easier when there is no moral hassles. Evil races were put there by evil gods out of jealousy. I encourage you to read the history of the Orc Pantheons in the various God and Demi-gods books over the editions. The history in the MToF about orcs and goblinoids is also very enlightening.

and this needs to apply to every setting with orcs and goblins?

I know that racism is a delicate subject in our modern world. I don't like racism and sexism any more than anyone here. But in a fantasy setting, these are tools to be used to create stories.

what do these "tools" have to do with good and evil?

I have three female players and their martial characters are great.

"some of my strongest characters are played by females!" how is this at all germane to the conversation?

One is in the second group and plays a Half Orc paladin. She faces racism all the time. But she rose in level and in fame. Her name is sang by bards all over the kingdom of Furyondy as the slayer of Kharak the High priest of the Ancient Iuz. She fought the views of others and overcame their views and found a place in their hearts. Use these as tools to further stories. You'll see.

what an original story O: but how about this: a setting where orcs aren't seen as inherently evil. the half orc paladin still becomes famous for slaying Kharak, but doesn't have to jump through a million hoops to get treated like a normal person.

also this feels kind of pointless unless she also convinced the kingdom that orcs aren't all evil.

Oh god! Don't ask for that! you're gonna turn the board into a clone of Giant In The Playground where they're not even allowed to discuss mythology because at some point they decided it counts as religion and it stuck, forever.

You ask for that and you're gonna get the rule cemented rather than relaxed.

to be fair there's a number of religions that are still very active and have a lot of worshipers but get treated like they're "mythologies" akin to Greek or Norse. Hinduism and Shitnoism are the two I notice a lot lol

 

[Celebrim]

orcs have like, what, one god?

Gruumsh One-Eye, Luthic, Ilveval, Bahtru, Shargass, and Yurtrus are generally considered the main deities of the pantheon.

it feels like the "evil" races just have the one god who created them and therefore they "have to" be evil.

This is unreasonable because? If I design something for a purpose, is it unreasonable to expect that it wouldn't fulfill that purpose?

okay how is that different from human raiders coming to town?

For the purposes of protecting yourself from raiders, it's not really. That's not really the point.

and this needs to apply to every setting with orcs and goblins?

Ok, this is probably THE most important thing to understand in the thread. It doesn't.

There are two sides in this conversation. One is saying, "Conceptualize orcs as always evil or in more nuanced fashion. However that makes sense to you, go for it." And the other is saying, "Everyone that doesn't accept my opinion is a racist." That's the whole reason this conversation is on going. If everyone agreed that there wasn't one true way, we'd not have an argument.

 

[Lanefan]

Gruumsh One-Eye, Luthic, Ilveval, Bahtru, Shargass, and Yurtrus are generally considered the main deities of the pantheon.

Were.

Gruumsh long since killed off all the rest.

 

[Celebrim]

Were.

Gruumsh long since killed off all the rest.

Really? When did that happen?

 

[Lanefan]

Really? When did that happen?

Long before any of us were born, my son.

(in a typical Orcish might-makes-right society, it only makes sense they'd project that on to their deities and thus the toughest of those deities would - in their mythology - kill off all the others)