Is the DM the most important person at the table

[hawkeyefan]

I do. There are NPCs in my campaigns with secrets, and they're in the statblocks. Maybe don't presume that everyone plays the same way you do.

Yeah, I get that. Obviously, it depends on the nature of the statblock and all that. I personally am not going quite as far with this as @Hussar in the sense that I don't know if players creating opponent stats is ideal. It may be sometimes, it may be quite the opposite at others ("hey, under race it says 'doppleganger'....is that a typo?").

But stat blocks are kind of a dime a dozen. When I'm talking about creating a NPC, I mean who they are in the world and what they want, and their mannerisms and connections to other NPCs or groups. All the flavor info. Sure, a given detail might be relevant to stats....a warlord being famed for his enchanted weapon certainly hints at some stat related data, but that's still all secondary.

Some of the ways that people are suggesting don't seem to me as though they'd make DMing easier for me. Probably others share this feeling, and I suspect that some of the frustration and irritation is (what seems to be) the blithe presumption that we haven't thought of these things or tried these things or given these things any consideration at all, and decided against them (or found they didn't work, in practice, for us).

I get that. I think that as the discussion has gone on, there's a little confusion as different folks make slightly different points, but appear to otherwise be generally on the same page. Hussars player crafted NPCs including statblocks versus my player crafted NPCs without statblocks, for example. It's easy for others to mistake us as having the same point, even if there is a distinction.

I don't think that you've been insisting that GMing must always be hard, or that there's no way to make things easier, so I don't know that pemerton's comment was directed at you.

I've felt similar frustration at points....and I think most of us face this in these long and winding discussions, and overall it's okay....where it seems that people are insisting that it must always be hard, and then you point out that some of the things they're doing are choices, and they then deflect with something else, and so on.

This, for me, is why I didn't even really want to engage about if DMing is harder than playing. Most people seemed to have made up their mind about that, and we're not going to change anyone's opinion.

But I think we can all agree that most hard jobs can be made to be easier. So that's what I'd rather discuss. Different methods are going to work or not work for different people. But I expect that we'll all likely agree that the job can be made easier in most cases.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I mean, sure? But they know what they want, at that time.

Look, people change. The type of music I listened to decades ago is not, largely, the same music I listen to today. The type of food I loved in 7th grade is not what I eat now.

My dream of subsisting only on cookie dough? Alas, discarded.

....but that doesn't mean people don't like what they like. And that's really the key; when you start from this position (as in the original statement you made):

"1) People don’t know which they actually want! They think they want AA, but they really want AOCM...or vice versa."

It becomes far too easy to discount what people are telling you about what they, in fact, do enjoy. And this isn't just TTRPGs, you see it in all sorts of fields. People just don't know better, or aren't cultured enough, or to use the phrasing here "they haven't worked through it yet[.]"

By and large, you can observe what people do, how they spend their time (revealed preferences) - and that's what they like to do. That might change, but .... the fastest way you can get someone to NOT change, and to NOT listen, is to tell them that they don't know what they want.

Try it out in any other area and see where it gets you!

"Hey, I mean, I know you're thinking of marrying that guy, but you don't really know what you want."

"Sure, you say you like that band, but you don't know what you really like."

"I understand that you say you'd rather watch the new MCU movie than go see Wes Anderson with me, but that's only because you haven't really worked through your appreciation of cinema yet."


Selling people on things you like? Great! People love enthusiasm. I mean,

Telling people that they don't understand their own preferences? Never ends well. IME.


Well, no.

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the premise of what I'm saying. It is wonderful that you find things that particularly meet your needs. And that those things, in turn, also happen to match the needs of people you play with.

That's great!

That isn't most people (IME). Most people, for example, don't write long posts on enworld. Most people don't spend six months waiting for an epiphany about a game system.

I would say that many people like to get together, have some fun, and do so in a communal situation. Some more seriously than others. And they enjoy shared experiences that scratch the itch, not just of one person, but of the multiple people that have gotten together.

I feel like a large part of the conversation has been about the nature of the GM's job, and the factors that may make it difficult.

And part of that conversation has also been about the perceived difficulty versus the actual difficulty. This is of course subjective, and will vary from person to person.

But I think that examining what people think they want, or think play must be, versus what they may actually want or what play can be, is worth consideration. A lot of times, people can be unaware that there are alternatives to what they already know or accept.

I think a pretty strong case can be made for this regarding the popularity of D&D and its methods and approach to RPGs and the general lack of awareness to alternate methods, even in a kind of "insider" forum like we see here. As you say, many folks who play RPGs don't post here on ENWorld or similar sites....so those here tend to be at least some degree beyond what we'd typically consider a "casual gamer", and even among this crowd there can be a distinct lack of awareness and/or lack of interest in playing in any alternate way than how D&D functions.

And that's fine. For the vast majority of folks who play, there's no need to go any further with it....they play D&D or whatever RPG and enjoy it as is, and don't give it much thought beyond that. That's perfectly fine. That doesn't mean that there won't be people who benefit from examining RPGs and what makes them work or what makes them enjoyable. And part of that means looking at what we know, and what we don't know, and also what we think we know.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that I don't know all the reasons behind my preferences when it comes to gaming, or anything else for that matter. Sometimes, there will be an obvious reason. Other times, I may have nothing more than a gut reaction.

There's nothing wrong with examining those instances and seeing if anything can be learned from them.

Also, saying "Sometimes people don't know what they want" is not the same as telling someone they don't know what they want. You seem to be assuming that @Manbearcat is directing his observation at someone specific, but I don't think he is.

 

[Manbearcat]

@lowkey13

Alright let’s try this.

The Edition War against 4e was a thing, yes?

Ok.

Some edition warriors got together to ritualistically burn the books, some complained vociferously at nerd gatherings (gameshops, social media, cons, lines for video games), some spent an enormous amount of time on internet message boards relentlessly voicing their displeasure, yes?

Ok

Some of these folks (the overwhelming majority that post on here) said they sincerely played the game for 6 months to a year in a general state of discontent as they worked through their issues with the game (which helped them give voice to them), yes?

This cross-section of gamers who fit this profile...does their 6-12 month foray in 4e and the subsequent EXTREME fallout of their dismay not comport to my depiction?

I mean...how in the world do you play a game (any game...you could also sub <date a person> or <work st a job>) for 6 months to a year...after reading it...in a state of growing discontent...that ends in a scorched earth campaign...

If you don’t have some kind of the following paradigm at work; <not sure about stuff but need to consider it/reorient myself while in a state of unhappiness to arive at NUKE THE WHOLE MOTHER EFFING SITE FROM ORBIT conclusion 6 months to a year later>?

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah, @hawkeyefan

It feels like we’re trying to find offense here.

You know who can take offense here.

Every one of us. All of humankind. We all suffer from this.

I grew up playing baseball. Played through college. I discovered later in life through a thorough investigation that I don’t like the game. It was a marriage of convenience and circumstance. I should have dedicated my athletic life to hockey (or MMA if I would have been born 10 years later).

My life is filled with these instances, big (like the one above or finally understanding why I like certain musical organization/arrangements), and small (like figuring out that I was pronouncing a word wrong in my head for a decade because I was using the wrong model for the sound and had never heard it out loud).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Manbearcat]

Man, I don’t understand at all.

This is just a description of how disagreement works.

This is literally the learning/corrective process of social animals.

“Hey, I don’t agree with you. Here is my case <states case that has the implicit assumption that the other person’s working model is at an information deficit or is misparamaterized>.”

This person might be wrong though. And the other person may say something that helps them change their mind.

Is ego a barrier? Of course. Buuuuut that is the nature of disagreement. Someone’s ego takes a hit...and maybe, they don’t take themself as seriously after that and their ego becomes less of a barrier next time!

We’re fallible (incorrect working models for things) and we have egos (we’re not happy, at least initially, to be challenged on that). But hopefully, we can continue to challenge each other (so we can increase our collective understanding and enrich our personal experience).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[hawkeyefan]

OTOH, as we see in this thread, sometime people say exactly what the issue is and they are ignored; cf. the repeated confusion when some people say that players don't want to adopt certain techniques, and the reply is that DMs just aren't adopting a player driven game.

Unawareness seems to be a two-way street.

Sure, of course it is. Conversation is imperfect, especially given the format here. We're all commenting on each others' games using minimal informtion that has been shared. But we can still work through it.

When people have cited that GMing is hard, that's fine....the point is what makes it hard? What can be done, if anything, to change that? Idea A may work for you, but not for me.

That's the worthwhile discussion, to me.

While that's possible, it is also true that there are many people who have tried many different systems and have found them lacking. In a sense, what you have stated is a chick/egg issue; is D&D only popular BECAUSE it is popular, or is there something about D&D that causes it to be popular?

.... why not both?

And if so, perhaps there is something to be learned from that popularity, instead of saying that anyone who enjoys D&D is living the unexamined life?

I didn't say that they were doing so. I said they may have no awareness of OR no desire for anything beyond D&D. And that's fine.

There have been some folks who GM and have commented in the thread that they'd like to try other systems, but that's a challenge because their players resist. This is very interesting to me, and trying to find out the reason for the disparity there is worth asking questions. Why does the GM want to try something else? Why don't the players? Is it a matter of role, or just personal preference, or some combo, or some other factor?

Not everything is an attack. I love D&D. I really do. I don't have any problem with D&D players. My comments are simply observations, I don't tend to place value judgments along with them. Some people are simply unaware that there are other gaming methods. I certainly fit that category for a significant portion of my gaming life. It didn't make me a bad gamer or a bad person.

Again, there is nothing wrong with you examining your preferences. That's healthy!

But if you're trying to convince other people, try not to say that they don't know what they want ... try telling them that you'd like them to try something awesome that you enjoy.

Watch-

"You don't know what you like; how could you eat that greasy takeout? It's so nasty."

"Hey- I just tried this Ethiopian place. It's different, but I couldn't believe how much I loved it. I'd love to go with you sometime!"

No one has said "Hey, Bill.....you don't know what you want."

It's been more like:

"GMing is hard"
"How so?"
"Well you have to create maps and NPCs and treasure lists, and track initiative and other in game elements, and the players don't really take any of the burden."
"Have you tried to play theater of the mind? Have you tried to let a player track initiative? Have you tried to let your players have more authorial power?"

People often come to understand the reasons behind their preferences by talking them out. Sure, in the very limited example I just gave, maybe nothing offered as a solution will work for that specific person. That's fine. Maybe someone else will offer something that may help! Or maybe the person will come to their own solutions prompted by the suggestions of others!

Any. Time. You. Tell. People. What. They. Want. And. You. Are. Not. Them. It. Will. End. Badly.

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

There's no need for you to be clearer. I understood you even without the additional punctuation.

I'm saying that you've mistaken someone observing that sometimes people don't know what they want as someone telling specific people they don't know what they want.

 

[Imaro]

When people have cited that GMing is hard, that's fine....the point is what makes it hard? What can be done, if anything, to change that? Idea A may work for you, but not for me.

That's the worthwhile discussion, to me.

Has anyone actually stated this, because I thought this was brought up in the context of GM'ing being harder than playing...