Consequences of playing "EVIL" races

[Helldritch]

I want to say that this is exactly backwards, and that you are excusing the Dungeon Master and the other players from their moral responsibilities both for their own behavior in-game, and from their moral responsibilities out-of-game to communicate acceptable playstyles before an unacceptable PC hits the mat.

Realism and logic can sometimes seen as backward. Nothing happens if the players play by table rules. Again, Lanefan is entirely right (at least in my POV) and he is not excusing any bad behavior. He's just stating the obvious.

But if I'm being fair, this is also something a player should check before playing such a character, without needing to be told.

Finally! Thank you.

In real life? They're going to be torn to pieces.

In D&D? Absolutely nothing. Dirty looks. Someone might spit on them.

These are in answers about an opposing faction showing its color in enemy territory. See Lanefan's post.

In real life you are entirely correct.
In D&D? Exactly as the above. Thorn to pieces, quartered by horses, hanged, burned on a pyre, after being fakely trialed and tortured on the public place for a good show. This is how medieval (and early renaissance) were dealing with criminals, enemies and spies within their territories.

 

[DammitVictor]

I think one thing we may be missing is that not all settings are intended as "kitchen sink" settings. Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer; those are all enabled to be "kitchen sink" settings. There is some argument to be made that Forgotten Realms is as well.

See, but that's not really the same problem or the same argument at all. You're talking about races that shouldn't exist in a setting, or should be vanishingly rare in a setting. DMs who don't want these races in their game are much more likely to simply ban them, and much less likely to hit them with the torches and pitchforks if they allow them through gritted teeth.

This is about races that are more-or-less ubiquitous within the setting and that are established by setting canon as coexisting-- uneasily-- within the communities of the PHB races.

The list of allowed races (or even cultures) allowed in a game should really vary on a campaign-by-campaign basis, and maybe even change if the nature of a campaign changes. Players are responsible for learning it, understanding it, and complying with it... (anyone who's banned anything has had this problem) ... but DMs are responsble for clearly communicating the rules, consistently enforcing the rules, and then for the behavior of their NPCs once the game starts.

 

[DammitVictor]

Realism and logic can sometimes seen as backward.

It helps if you take the crayon out of your nose before looking at them. There's nothing realistic about your childish understanding of how racism works, and there's nothing logical about your bleating assertions that Dungeon Masters aren't responsible for the behavior of their authored settings and characters-- for their own decisions.

Charitably, I can say you have a consistent vision for your game world and that's fair, even if it's not the same vision as in the books. But sooner or later, you're going to have to grow up and take responsibility for the decisions that you've made in shaping that vision and bringing it to life. D&D is a lot more fun with adults.

 

[Helldritch]

It helps if you take the crayon out of your nose before looking at them. There's nothing realistic about your childish understanding of how racism works, and there's nothing logical about your bleating assertions that Dungeon Masters aren't responsible for the behavior of their authored settings and characters-- for their own decisions.

Charitably, I can say you have a consistent vision for your game world and that's fair, even if it's not the same vision as in the books. But sooner or later, you're going to have to grow up and take responsibility for the decisions that you've made in shaping that vision and bringing it to life. D&D is a lot more fun with adults.

No need to insult anyone. You have a tendency to be obnoxious with those who disagree with you. I am fully grown up and probably much older than you. If you want to live in a carebear world fine by me.

For your knowledge I know full well how racism works. Many of my friends suffered from it. Some are in the LGBTQ and gets insulted and ostricized for being what they are. One of my players is a muslim and suffers from religious intolerance and racism. It is exactly because I fight these horrible behaviors IRL that I know full well how they work and how those who use sexism, bigotry and religious intolerance work and behave. Sometimes, showing these ingame to white male/female players show them what kind of suffering minority members really suffers. You should remove the rose tainted glasses you wear. This way you will see what these horrible behaviors are and how they affect our world.

As for not being responsible.
Of course a DM is responsible for his work, his world and his style. I never said the contrary. But so are the players. RPG is a team work. We create the world together. On the other hand. The new player coming with his idea of how things should work and try to impose his views on the established world is exactly what I am opposing. You consistently ignore parts of my posts that are almost like yours and you only cite what you feel will further the opinion you made about me.

As for my vision I have of the books.
I already gave you answers on that (with pages too) but you decided to ignore them. Your loss, not mine.

 

[DammitVictor]

No need to insult anyone. You have a tendency to be obnoxious with those who disagree with you. I am fully grown up and probably much older than you. If you want to live in a carebear world fine by me.

You've been baiting me this entire time. You're right, that I do have a tendency to be obnoxious and that I've been indulging that tendency excessively towards you. On the other hand, I don't think you're the person who gets to say that to me.

I'm not obnoxious to people who disagree with me. I'm obnoxious to people who pretend they don't understand simple concepts to win an argument, and then think this justifies being arrogant and condescending about it. I'm obnoxious to people who dismiss and belittle me, over and over again, and then say "no need to insult anyone" when I bite back.

And then insult me again, for good measure.

edit: I've removed the rest of this post, and if you've seen it, I apologize for it. If I'm going to take responsibility for my role in escalating this argument... I should probably also take responsibility for trying to end it.

I am going to try to stop taking shots at you. I will thank you to do the same, including recognizing-- for yourself-- the shots you have previously taken.

 

[Helldritch]

Let's just agree that we disagree on that subject and leave it at that.

Apologies taken and accepted. And I, good sir, ask the same of you. May we find common grounds in an other thread.

 

[Maxperson]

It helps if you take the crayon out of your nose before looking at them. There's nothing realistic about your childish understanding of how racism works, and there's nothing logical about your bleating assertions that Dungeon Masters aren't responsible for the behavior of their authored settings and characters-- for their own decisions.

Charitably, I can say you have a consistent vision for your game world and that's fair, even if it's not the same vision as in the books. But sooner or later, you're going to have to grow up and take responsibility for the decisions that you've made in shaping that vision and bringing it to life. D&D is a lot more fun with adults.

I think a lot of your problem is you keep trying to apply real life to D&D. Stop. It doesn't work. Fantasy cultures and fantasy races are not going to mirror real life humans.

 

[DammitVictor]

I think a lot of your problem is you keep trying to apply real life to D&D. Stop. It doesn't work. Fantasy cultures and fantasy races are not going to mirror real life humans.

Fiction can play merry hell with the physical sciences, even in settings without explicit magic, and people are mostly not going to bat an eyelash.

A setting that tries the same with the social sciences, a setting where people don't act like people, falls apart because it destroys the audience's ability to engage with the characters.

Besides, if my problem is demanding too much realism, why is everyone else using realism to justify the behaviors I'm criticizing?

If D&D isn't supposed to be realistic, there's no reason for those behaviors at all.

 

[Maxperson]

Fiction can play merry hell with the physical sciences, even in settings without explicit magic, and people are mostly not going to bat an eyelash.

A setting that tries the same with the social sciences, a setting where people don't act like people, falls apart because it destroys the audience's ability to engage with the characters.

This is a False Dichotomy. There is a very wide range between mirroring real life and being unrelatable.

Besides, if my problem is demanding too much realism, why is everyone else using realism to justify the behaviors I'm criticizing?

Yes. Realism does not equate to mirroring reality and never has.

If D&D isn't supposed to be realistic, there's no reason for those behaviors at all.

Again, realistic does not equal reality. If it did, no dragons, no magic and much more.

 

[hawkeyefan]

This is a False Dichotomy. There is a very wide range between mirroring real life and being unrelatable.



Yes. Realism does not equate to mirroring reality and never has.


Again, realistic does not equal reality. If it did, no dragons, no magic and much more.

But isn’t that the point? If we can envision a world with dragons and magic...departures from the world we know...can’t we also envision a world where people aren’t as concerned with race?

The fiction can literally be anything we desire, so having the pitchfork mobs show up for anyone outside the norm is not really an attempt at realism, but rather an aesthetic choice.