D&D 5E Super Deadly 5E?

[tetrasodium]

Could you please use the right teminology?
Instant death has nothing to do with massive damage.
Massive damage is an optional rule in DMG. p273.

that does not make his statement about "kiling" a pc with 2 hp being "quite easy" correct. In fact it's only a slight twist on the instant death base rule. Your complaint is why I included the falling unconscious thing & pointed out that is what happens when that 2 hp rogue takes damage and then needs one of many many options to restore their absorption shield.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I will say that after being reduced to 2 HP it would have been quite easy to kill the rogue in my game. Any hit from any creature would likely have taken her out because of massive damage.

Sure. Having a max HP of 2 would mean instant death from any attack that does 4 points of damage or more. 2 damage drops the PC to 0, and 2 more would mean exceeding the now 2 maximum hp, resulting in instant death.

I don't think you really mean "massive damage" as in the Massive damage rule (the optional rule in the DMG) can never kill someone outright. At best it can reduce a PC to 0 HP and making death saves.

 

[Oofta]

Not sure how we got off on this tangent... But a wraith reduces your max HP.

Wraith:

Life Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 21 (4d8 + 3) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.​

Instant death from massive damage is in the PHB:

Instant Death​

Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.​

 

[DND_Reborn]

Instant death from massive damage is in the PHB:

Instant Death​

Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.​

I think the confusion is just the underlined use of "Massive damage" under the Instant Death rule and the same term being used for the Massive Damage option rule in the DMG. As we've shown in your example, once maximum HP is low enough, the damage than could be an instant death doesn't have to be "massive" really.

 

[Oofta]

Sure. Having a max HP of 2 would mean instant death from any attack that does 4 points of damage or more. 2 damage drops the PC to 0, and 2 more would mean exceeding the now 2 maximum hp, resulting in instant death.

I don't think you really mean "massive damage" as in the Massive damage rule (the optional rule in the DMG) can never kill someone outright. At best it can reduce a PC to 0 HP and making death saves.

I guess I'm just not picky enough for you on game verbiage.

Yes, it's instant death. That results from massive damage. Not death from massive damage ... I guess. The natural language used in 5E is not always as precise as previous editions.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I guess I'm just not picky enough for you on game verbiage.

Yes, it's instant death. That results from massive damage. Not death from massive damage ... I guess. The natural language used in 5E is not always as precise as previous editions.

Well, it isn't me really, I was just pointing out where the problem arose. I didn't have any problems following you.

 

[Nebulous]

• Getting your hands on 300 GP worth of diamonds is not a simple task
• Don't like Revivify? Ban it.

None of those solutions are difficult to implement, only banning the spell is a house rule.

That's what I did, banned it. I will allow it has a special one-shot magic item though, just not as a class spell. So, a potion of Revivify would be highly treasured.

 

[tetrasodium]

Not sure how we got off on this tangent... But a wraith reduces your max HP.

Wraith:

Life Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 21 (4d8 + 3) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.​

Instant death from massive damage is in the PHB:

Instant Death​

Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.​

Luckily, all the character in question needs to do is choose not to risk the addition of forced march penalties & instead choose to sleep 8 hours to remove that reduction and get all their hp including the hp they just regained access to and get all their spell slots back.... It sounds like your point is that the wraith is a big threat to a low con small hd low ac character? Start changing those things (especially ac) & it's quickly a nonissue given it only has +6 to hit, 13 ac & 67 hp without the old tincorporeal traits* that made them scary to high ac characters.

* amounted to it ignoring armor & shield plus 50% chance of doing no damage if you hit it.

 

[Oofta]

Luckily, all the character in question needs to do is choose not to risk the addition of forced march penalties & instead choose to sleep 8 hours to remove that reduction and get all their hp including the hp they just regained access to and get all their spell slots back.... It sounds like your point is that the wraith is a big threat to a low con small hd low ac character? Start changing those things (especially ac) & it's quickly a nonissue given it only has +6 to hit, 13 ac & 67 hp without the old target touch ac aspect that made them scary to high ac characters.

Well actually this happened during the nights rest. So the wraith went right through the PC on guard duty and had advantage on the prone/sleeping PCs. They were trying to rest in an area closely associated to the Shadowfell. Oh, and in addition the cleric was AWOL.

As far as just resting (again) that's a question of pacing and threat. It was simply a dangerous area. I don't hand out magic items like candy so her AC is 15 and I don't see that improving all that much any time soon.

But they survived. This was supposed to be a relatively easy random encounter, 5th level party vs a single CR 5 monster isn't even a medium encounter based on how I calculate. If I really wanted to challenge them it would have been multiple wraiths, popping in and out of walls. Maybe throw in magical darkness like the encounter that almost took out the monk.

There are a lot of ways to make a deadly encounters in 5E, this one just happened to be a bit more deadly than I had expected.

 

[Tonguez]

There are so many different ways to make the game "deadlier" if you really want to. In addition to all the variant stuff in the DMG, you can even do stuff like just remove healing and resurrection spells from the game. Take out Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Revivify, Raise Dead etc. and all the rest. If the recovery from injury/death via magical means is removed and all recovery is by natural recovery only... then voila, your game will be "deadlier".

Or let's be honest and more to the point... the game will be "slower". Because since nobody wants to have their characters die, they will just run away and go do the non-magical recovery route for however long you've set the rules for. Then and only then will they go out adventuring again. Which is fine if you as the DM are okay with extended breaks between adventures (or even in the middle of adventures), but my guess is most DMs don't want the story of the campaign broken up like that.

And this is the problem with using Death as the "losing-state" of D&D, and why focusing on the "game" of D&D rather than the "story" is never as satisfying. The players can lose in the "story" so many more and disparate ways than they ever can in the "game". So spend more time focused on ways to ruin their lives in the campaign and less time trying to just "kill" them. Because a PC whose personal or professional life is in shambles is much more of a losing state for the player than just having their character killed off.

You want the players to occasionally "lose"? Keep their characters alive but narratively in shambles with almost no way to climb out of it.

I irony of this op is that the best way to keep the PCs life in shambles is to focus on their non-adventuring life - which is best done in the long downtime that you’re also concerned about.

If the story is just going from adventure to adventure busting dungeons and killing giants then the shambles of the PCs life is kinda ephemeral, real hurt happens when the swords are sheathed and the PC has to live their life