D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

I kind of like the idea of adding additional action surge uses to the champion.

Not sure at all if this could be balanced.

I think It's approximately the same as adding 1 CS die at low level 2 at 5th level and similar as it scales.

 

[Hussar]

If the argument is simple, "I feel like the powers are samey", well, I suppose that's perfectly true.

But, the counter to that is, "So what?" So they feel samey to you? Who cares?

That's not the question at hand. I couldn't give a rat's patoot about your feelings anymore than you should care about mine. The question is, are the powers, in fact, actually samey?

No, they aren't. That's a provable fact. There is a pretty wide variety among the powers, even powers in the same class at a given level. What is samey is how the powers were presented.

If all we're talking about is feelings, then, well, there's no conversation to be had at all. Some like it some don't. Whoopee. All "samey" means is "something I don't like but, it's not enough that I don't like it, so, I have to come up with some sort of justification for not liking it to prove that it's BAD."

 

[Maxperson]

If the argument is simple, "I feel like the powers are samey", well, I suppose that's perfectly true.

But, the counter to that is, "So what?" So they feel samey to you? Who cares?

That's true in both directions.

That's not the question at hand. I couldn't give a rat's patoot about your feelings anymore than you should care about mine. The question is, are the powers, in fact, actually samey?

And it's a poor question. You can't answer it outside of "feels."

No, they aren't. That's a provable fact.

No it isn't. It's actually impossible to prove since "samey" is entirely subjective. If your question is, "Are all the powers written identically?", then sure, you can prove that they aren't. That wasn't the question, though.

There is a pretty wide variety among the powers, even powers in the same class at a given level. What is samey is how the powers were presented.

The variety is irrelevant to "samey," since samey is a subjective approximation. Powers do not have to be the identical in order to be "samey."

If all we're talking about is feelings, then, well, there's no conversation to be had at all. Some like it some don't. Whoopee. All "samey" means is "something I don't like but, it's not enough that I don't like it, so, I have to come up with some sort of justification for not liking it to prove that it's BAD."

Conversation over I guess.

 

[Don Durito]

The question is, are the powers, in fact, actually samey?

This question is gibberish.

...unless one adds "according to the following agreed upon criteria".

I would think after 24 pages of there failing to be a conversation, it would seem pretty likely that there's no conversation to be had.

At least on these terms.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Option 3: it's both samey and not samey depending on the vantage point from which one views the game.

Then the term is meaningless and worse than useless.

But what it seems to actually refer to, judging by every description I’ve seen of what it is like to experience sameyness in the context of D&D, is the phenomenon of too many options that are packaged the same, having to be reviewed in order to be understood, and having to be understood in order to choose from during level up AND use on a turn, leading to an effect much like what has been observed with models of cars, where the distinctions between objects cease not to exist, but rather cease to matter to a given individual.

Sadly the only way to test this would be to somehow go back in time and make 4e either package different classes powers differently, provide fewer choices of powers for most classes, or both, and then see what happens.

 

[Don Durito]

One day it would be nice to have a discussion of 4E where this pattern can be broken.

A) I don't like 4E.
b) That's ok, everyone likes different things. Why don't you like 4E out of curiosity?
A) Because X
B) You're wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

Then the term is meaningless and worse than useless.

You get it!

 

[FrogReaver]

If the argument is simple, "I feel like the powers are samey", well, I suppose that's perfectly true.

But, the counter to that is, "So what?" So they feel samey to you? Who cares?

That's not the question at hand. I couldn't give a rat's patoot about your feelings anymore than you should care about mine. The question is, are the powers, in fact, actually samey?

No, they aren't. That's a provable fact. There is a pretty wide variety among the powers, even powers in the same class at a given level. What is samey is how the powers were presented.

If all we're talking about is feelings, then, well, there's no conversation to be had at all. Some like it some don't. Whoopee. All "samey" means is "something I don't like but, it's not enough that I don't like it, so, I have to come up with some sort of justification for not liking it to prove that it's BAD."

We are discussing why people dislike a game - what else could we be talking about other than feels?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One day it would be nice to have a discussion of 4E where this pattern can be broken.

A) I don't like 4E.
b) That's ok, everyone likes different things. Why don't you like 4E out of curiosity?
A) Because X
B) You're wrong.

The last isn’t really accurate. It’s more like, “that’s odd, because the specific claim that you’re making about the game runs directly counter on a factual basis to what the thing actual does.”

I mean, I’venever seen anyone say anything like “you’re wrong” in response to claims like “it’s harder than I’d like to run ToTM” or “I don’t want to have to review 17 distinct abilities before figuring out what to do with my turn”, because those reference elements of the game that are factually there.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then the term is meaningless and worse than useless.

Why? Saying in a single word that to me the distinctions between the objects you are talking about don't matter should be highly relevant to why I and others dislike 4e.

But what it seems to actually refer to, judging by every description I’ve seen of what it is like to experience sameyness in the context of D&D, is the phenomenon of too many options that are packaged the same, having to be reviewed in order to be understood, and having to be understood in order to choose from during level up AND use on a turn, leading to an effect much like what has been observed with models of cars, where the distinctions between objects cease not to exist, but rather cease to matter to a given individual.

Sounds like you are starting to get it.

Sadly the only way to test this would be to somehow go back in time and make 4e either package different classes powers differently, provide fewer choices of powers for most classes, or both, and then see what happens.

I don't think it needs tested. Just ask the people saying it and take them at their word.