D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

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Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

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dave2008

Legend
I don't like WotC-era multiclassing. My favorite class in 2e was a mage/thief, and that concept is simply impossible now.
I'm sure you disagree, but I feel you can get pretty close with the correct combination of class and background in 5e.

Have you tried comparing what a 1st level 2e mage/thief could do vs. a 1st level 5e wizard with the criminal or urchin background; or a rogue with the sage background? If you use a variant human you can play a rouge with the sage background and take the magic initiate feat at first level. I imagine that would be pretty similar.

EDIT: You can then multi-class after 1st level as you see fit
 
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teitan

Legend
When 3e came out the changes to multiclassing were a godsend but as time wore on and 3.5 launched and it started to become about “builds” rather than interesting characters the flaws in the system became glaring. Most groups ignored the restrictions on multiclassing and that didn’t help when new players would come into a group and expect a DM to follow the rules of another group. Even in 5e, I always point out things are optional and not core and I try to stick to core but some of my players have this “well it’s in the book” attitude. I plan to nix it in my next campaign.
 

Horwath

Legend
Humans get +1 to everything.

Half-orcs by comparison are effectively +1 Str, even Con, -1 everything else.

So why are we complaining about removing racial penalties? They just hid the minus signs under a layer of math.

this is true.

I would rather see humans without any stat boosts at 1st level. Except what they get from feat(s)

Version 1: humans get:
2 bonus feats at 1st level. Maybe little overpowered...

Version 2: Humans get:
no ability boosts
Languages: common, plus 2 extra
Bonus 2 skill proficiencies,
Bonus 2 tool or weapon proficiencies,
Bonus 1 expertise
Bonus 1 saving throw proficiency
Advantage on death saves
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The best argument for multiclassing I've found is that it allows your character to suddenly change course and become something else. However, that isn't typically how it is used.

My personal take is that no multiclassing and more classes is the best solution. Then give DM's some advice on handling a character that wants to take a different class path due to story considerations to cover the concern I listed above.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Humans get +1 to everything.

Half-orcs by comparison are effectively +1 Str, even Con, -1 everything else.

So why are we complaining about removing racial penalties? They just hid the minus signs under a layer of math.

Effectively, yes. It's a bit of a psychological game, really. They make humans attractive via broad stat inflation. That said, it really does add on top of the expected value of a die roll, if you roll your stats (which you should - shameless plug for my style of character creation).
 

Aldarc

Legend
The best argument for multiclassing I've found is that it allows your character to suddenly change course and become something else. However, that isn't typically how it is used.

My personal take is that no multiclassing and more classes is the best solution. Then give DM's some advice on handling a character that wants to take a different class path due to story considerations to cover the concern I listed above.
I kinda prefer the True20/Stars Without Numbers method. There are three flexible classes: roughly Warrior, Rogue, and Mage. No multiclassing. But then there is a fourth quasi-class: the Adventurer, which is kinda like the multiclass-class. You can pick Warrior/Mage, Warrior/Rogue, or Mage/Rogue, but you don't get the full benefits of a full class.

But this is the other end of the spectrum: less classes but with multiclassing.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I kinda prefer the True20/Stars Without Numbers method. There are three flexible classes: roughly Warrior, Rogue, and Mage. No multiclassing. But then there is a fourth quasi-class: the Adventurer, which is kinda like the multiclass-class. You can pick Warrior/Mage, Warrior/Rogue, or Mage/Rogue, but you don't get the full benefits of a full class.

But this is the other end of the spectrum: less classes but with multiclassing.

I played in a Stars without Number campaign that was very similar to that. For a more simple game system it worked great. Really enjoyable system. Also of note is that mages in it were limited in scope and power ;)

EDIT: I'm just not sure I'd propose that as the route to take D&D.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I played in a Stars without Number campaign that was very similar to that. For a more simple game system it worked great. Really enjoyable system. I'm just not sure I'd propose that as the route to take D&D.
That's definitely fair. There are many ways to achieve the desired play goal: the mechanical realization of a character concept. 3e D&D arguably had too much class bloat. I believe that 3e had 60+ various classes released in official books. In contrast, 4e had 26 total across its various books (PHB 1-3 and Essentials) and there are 13 in 5e (i.e., 12 in PHB plus 1 in Eberron).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
That's definitely fair. There are many ways to achieve the desired play goal: the mechanical realization of a character concept. 3e D&D arguably had too much class bloat. I believe that 3e had 60+ various classes released in official books. In contrast, 4e had 26 total across its various books (PHB 1-3 and Essentials) and there are 13 in 5e (i.e., 12 in PHB plus 1 in Eberron).

Perhaps I'm alone but I'm not opposed to class bloat if there isn't multiclassing.
 

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