D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

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Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Horwath

Legend
That extra +1 on your skill check isn't going to amount to a hill of beans when you are adding it to a d20 roll. Casanova wasn't just 5% more charming than the next guy, and you don't need a Constitution of 20 to "drink a dwarf under the table." Dwarves can roll 2s just as often as elves can roll 19s.

Nobody is "penalizing the player." Sheesh.

depends on the DC, maybe he was 5% more charming or 20% more or even 100% more charming. Just from +1 bonus.
 

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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Re: non-squitur, I was trying to be funny. Paladins and rangers don't matter, you see. ~rimshot~

We are going to have to agree to disagree, fellas. I will always miss the racial penalties of 3rd Edition, and the way they made character builds a little more interesting and challenging (according to me). You haven't changed my mind. And I will always miss the Favored Class mechanic too, because they made multiclassing and level-dips a lot more interesting and challenging (according to me). In my opinion, 5th Edition took a small step backward here, but it's nothing that can't be fixed with houserules. Or removed entirely, since 5E did have the foresight to make multiclassing optional.
 

Undrave

Legend
I think in 5e a chance was missed by not using subclasses as a way to multiclass.

But... that's what they did??? The Eldritch Knight, the Arcane Trickster, the College of Swords, the Arcane Archer, the Oath of the Ancient, the Nature Domain, the Arcana Domain, the Trickery Domain, the Way of Shadow, the Way of the 4 Elements, the Warmagic tradition, the Divine Soul, the Abherrent Soul... A lot of subclasses are mixing of different themes.

Now, granted, I don't think any of the 5e Gish options are as good as a 4e Swordmage in realizing the concept, but it's not that terrible.

I'd like to see them push the Barbarian a bit more though.
 

Undrave

Legend
I like this idea a lot actually. I could see the whole game organized a around a lvl 1-10 and lvl 11-20 divide.

I proposed a similar system in another thread!

A lot of Level 1-10 classes that you can't actually multi class in, but gives you a lot of niche options (like, instead of a generic Wizard you have a Necromancer class, a Pyromancer class, etc) with only a few options in the progression (half your spells already decided for you, for exemple, if not more, and your class decides what ASI you get), and you pick a new class when you reach level 11, with new ones that either continue your specialization or pull you in a different path. A class would ideally be one, maybe two pages at most basically.

Furthermore, your character at level 1 would be a combination of Race, Culture, Background and Class, with beefier Background options. Race would pick your physical ability, culture would give you skill to match a certain outlook and background would represent your life before being an adventurer. One thing I would do is I'd put the current Ranger's favoured terrain as a Background or Culture feature, instead of a class feature. You're from the desert, you're good at being in the desert, for exemple. That way, most of your Social and Exploration ability would be more of a function of where you come from and class can focus more on Combat with only a few abilities for the other pillar, and no class concept would thus be completely terrible at any of the pillars.

I'd probably make it similar to PF2 where each step of decision (Race, Culture, Background and Class) gives you a number of ability bonus and you start with like... 10/10/10/10/10/8 and that's how you build your ability scores. Even then, I'd probably ditch the 'Ability Score/Modifier' dichotomy and just go directly with modifiers.
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I proposed a similar system in another thread!

A lot of Level 1-10 classes that you can't actually multi class in, but gives you a lot of niche options (like, instead of a generic Wizard you have a Necromancer class, a Pyromancer class, etc) with only a few options in the progression (half your spells already decided for you, for exemple, if not more, and your class decides what ASI you get), and you pick a new class when you reach level 11, with new ones that either continue your specialization or pull you in a different path. A class would ideally be one, maybe two pages at most basically.

Furthermore, your character at level 1 would be a combination of Race, Culture, Background and Class, with beefier Background options. Race would pick your physical ability, culture would give you skill to match a certain outlook and background would represent your life before being an adventurer. One thing I would do is I'd put the current Ranger's favoured terrain as a Background or Culture feature, instead of a class feature. You're from the desert, you're good at being in the desert, for exemple. That way, most of your Social and Exploration ability would be more of a function of where you come from and class can focus more on Combat with only a few abilities for the other pillar, and no class concept would thus be completely terrible at any of the pillars.
I'd love to see a more fleshed out system like this, using the 5e chassis.
 

Yes, but all you have to do is say: you can pick powers from another class, and it is essentially classless. Now I would think ideally you plan for this and have the powers balanced by level or tier or whatever metric you want (possibly with prerequisites) and you have a great classless system that is wearing a class system disguise.

Right, then it would be classless. For presentation's sake, I'd still want the powers grouped by class. (Classes then would truly just be sample templates.)

BTW, in "my own 6th Edition", even the "general feats" are listed under a specific class...the "Adventurer" (which was actually a Kit in the Complete Thief's Handbook). To take those general feats, a PC has to take levels in "Adventurer."
 

Erdric Dragin

Adventurer
5e multiclass rules are getting worse as more content gets released. The 1, or 2, level dip becomes incredibly powerful with front-loaded archetypes like the Hexblade. Personally, I think there should be a rule that class levels need to be within 3 of each other. Anyone looking for a 'dip' usually has an archetype option in their base class (e.g. Eldritch Knight for the fighter that wants to dip into Wizard).

They did in 3.0

If any of your classes was more than 1 level apart from another, you took a -20% XP penalty. And it stacked (so a Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 10 would take a -40% penalty). It had a reasonable in-game explanation as well as a game balance explanation.

Then in 3.5, they did away with it and I don't know why.
 

That seems to me to be incorrect, since 4e probably had too many choices in general, not too few. Power choices almost every level, feats every other level, plus Theme, Paragon Path, and Epic Destiny.
It seems to have been, paradoxically, a combination of too many choices and too few, in a "worst-of-both-worlds" situation. The game presented the player with a plethora of power and feat choices, prompting complaints of analysis paralysis, but the balance of the system math was so tight that those choices had only marginal effects on the character's function (compared to what was possible in 3E, at least), prompting complaints of "sameyness".
 

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