D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

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Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The article states that third edition let you "mix and match as you please". This is an Oberoni Fallacy. As noted before, the rules as written had that inexplicable XP penalty that nobody used.
We did. Didn’t stop me or anyone else I know of from progressing as we saw fit.
 

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And the Hexblade really does threaten to break the system

Which, (to me), is more of an indictment of the Subclass, and the Warlock class in general, than of 5e multi-classing.

A Cha based Eldritch Knight/Hexblade is entirely viable, nay..potent, because of the interaction of Eldritch Blast, Hexblade removing M.A.D, and War Magic allowing the character to essentially get full Fighter attack progression +1 attack...due to the iterative attacks for Eldritch Blast, being based off character level, instead of class level.

On first read, I thought the 5e Warlock intriguing, but overtime realized the designers had, alas, fornicated with canines, (🦮🍆) in it’s initial design, and in their correction to the Pact of the Blade thru the Hexblade subclass.

Moving Feat/ASI to class advancement, is a nice enticement to keep multi-classing in 4 level increments, with Extra Attacks come in 5 to 6 level increments.

Most of the multi-classing threads here in Morrus-land, are based off the CHA classes.

Almost no mention of Ranger/Monks, or taking one level of cleric for heavy armor proficiency.
To me that indicates, the system is overall stable, with one major anomaly.

5e is the edition that I have seen the least amount of multi-classing.
 
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Undrave

Legend
OK, I understand now. I thing there is some merit to that approach, but I wouldn't want to start at 0 (or 10). Unless I am missing something, this would give everyone who picked the same class, race, culture, and background the same stats, which I don't like. I like the idea of all of those things providing mechanical benefits, I just don't know if they all need to be stat boost (though it could be,or are part of the benefit at leasts), and I don't think those should be the only things that determine stats. Some times nature does gives us different stats. My son has the same race, culture, background, & class (TBD), but he is 5" taller than me and stronger than me. I feel that variability should still be a part of the game

This could be solved by having some of the stat bumps be a choice between two stats. Like, a Great Weapon Master class would get +2 STR but then pick between +1 to one of the three mental stats. Or, if you come from a Theocratic culture you pick between +1 to WIS or +1 to CHA.

Just a bit of variance here and there.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This could be solved by having some of the stat bumps be a choice between two stats. Like, a Great Weapon Master class would get +2 STR but then pick between +1 to one of the three mental stats. Or, if you come from a Theocratic culture you pick between +1 to WIS or +1 to CHA.

Just a bit of variance here and there.
Or at some stage in the process you could throw in a randomizer:

Roll d6 to determine stat.

Roll d6 again:

1-3 that stat gets -1
4-5 that stat gets +1
6 - that stat gets +1, roll d6 again for stat and that stat also gets +1 (can be the same stat twice)
 

dave2008

Legend
This could be solved by having some of the stat bumps be a choice between two stats. Like, a Great Weapon Master class would get +2 STR but then pick between +1 to one of the three mental stats. Or, if you come from a Theocratic culture you pick between +1 to WIS or +1 to CHA.

Just a bit of variance here and there.
That helps, but doesn't solve the issue, IMO. I still prefer your approach to be layered on top of a stat generation system. So that it augments your stats, not supplants them. You are providing more choice, which is great, but you have eliminated the random and eliminated the chance for crazy good stats. I still want the option of the character with better (or worse) stats just because of luck (nature). I want the option of playing a character that doesn't have the ideal stats for his/her class, not because I chose it, but because that is what dice (fate/nature) determined and I have to struggle against it. I guess I just want some random in my stat generation.

Also, on my wish list would be to keep the full stats (not just modifiers), but to make each stat point important. I haven't thought it through, but something like an 18 would be a +8, not a +4. So each point above the baseline gives you some improvement. I have also thought about providing benefits for higher stats that are not just modifier bonuses, so maybe every even provides an additional +1 modifier, but every odd number provides a different benefit (may increase damage dice or something). Like I said, I haven't given it a lot of thought.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That helps, but doesn't solve the issue, IMO. I still prefer your approach to be layered on top of a stat generation system. So that it augments your stats, not supplants them. You are providing more choice, which is great, but you have eliminated the random and eliminated the chance for crazy good stats. I still want the option of the character with better (or worse) stats just because of luck (nature). I want the option of playing a character that doesn't have the ideal stats for his/her class, not because I chose it, but because that is what dice (fate/nature) determined and I have to struggle against it. I guess I just want some random in my stat generation.
Every D&D-like game has to provide a random option and a non-random option. Most players have a strong preference for one or the other, and there's no real compromise option that can be reached.
 

Every D&D-like game has to provide a random option and a non-random option. Most players have a strong preference for one or the other, and there's no real compromise option that can be reached.

What if you rolled for each stat's base value (perhaps 2d8) and then applied point buy to the results of the rolls instead of starting with straight 8's across the board
 

dave2008

Legend
Every D&D-like game has to provide a random option and a non-random option. Most players have a strong preference for one or the other, and there's no real compromise option that can be reached.
What @Undrave is suggesting is different and interesting. It is not random, but it is also not point-buy. I will call it feature based stats. The stats are generate solely by your selection of character "features" (class, race, background, & culture). There is no rolling or point-buy.

What I am proposing is a more traditional method of stat generation (rolling or point-buy) and the adding Undrave's idea on top of that. So you roll or buy your stats, then your stats are adjusted by your choice of race, class, background, and culture. I think the marriage sounds great.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
What @Undrave is suggesting is different and interesting. It is not random, but it is also not point-buy. I will call it feature based stats. The stats are generate solely by your selection of character "features" (class, race, background, & culture). There is no rolling or point-buy.

What I am proposing is a more traditional method of stat generation (rolling or point-buy) and the adding Undrave's idea on top of that. So you roll or buy your stats, then your stats are adjusted by your choice of race, class, background, and culture. I think the marriage sounds great.
Oh yea, Undrave's system (which I think was mentioned is derived from PF2) is great. PF2's system is probably my current favorite published system for generating stats. It has racial penalties and racial bonuses for those who like them but doesn't make any race (ancestry) choice bad for any class. Lots of customizability but you can always get your main stat high enough.
 

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