D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

3ephp.jpg

Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Fanaelialae

Legend
They did in 3.0

If any of your classes was more than 1 level apart from another, you took a -20% XP penalty. And it stacked (so a Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 10 would take a -40% penalty). It had a reasonable in-game explanation as well as a game balance explanation.

Then in 3.5, they did away with it and I don't know why.
IMO, it wasn't a great solution. Yes, it solved the issue of dipping (unless it was your favored class in which case it accomplished nothing), but at the cost of excessively limiting legitimate multiclassing.

Not every character concept should necessarily be a 50/50 split, but this required it (technically you COULD advance differently, but at a cost so high that it was insane to do so; -20% XP was a large penalty). You could technically even multiclass your way to a 100% XP penalty, though in all likelihood the character would be unplayable long before that point.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
They did in 3.0

If any of your classes was more than 1 level apart from another, you took a -20% XP penalty. And it stacked (so a Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 10 would take a -40% penalty). It had a reasonable in-game explanation as well as a game balance explanation.

Then in 3.5, they did away with it and I don't know why.

I assume they did away with it, in no small part, because people constantly complained about it or didn't bother using it. Same reason a lot of tricky stuff that spellcasters faced in AD&D disappeared in 3.0 - they were unfun from the player's perspective, cumbersome, and often dispensed with. And if hardly anyone is into it, why have it in the game?
 

The article states that third edition let you "mix and match as you please". This is an Oberoni Fallacy. As noted before, the rules as written had that inexplicable XP penalty that nobody used.
 

Same reason a lot of tricky stuff that spellcasters faced in AD&D disappeared in 3.0 - they were unfun from the player's perspective, cumbersome, and often dispensed with. And if hardly anyone is into it, why have it in the game?
Probably not the best comparison to make, as a lot of the "tricky stuff" disappearing for 3.0 casters is one reason casters became even more overpowered than they already had been before.
 

Probably not the best comparison to make, as a lot of the "tricky stuff" disappearing for 3.0 casters is one reason casters became even more overpowered than they already had been before.
And this position is a Grod's Law* violation

*Grod's Law: "You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use."
 


dave2008

Legend
I proposed a similar system in another thread!

A lot of Level 1-10 classes that you can't actually multi class in, but gives you a lot of niche options (like, instead of a generic Wizard you have a Necromancer class, a Pyromancer class, etc) with only a few options in the progression (half your spells already decided for you, for exemple, if not more, and your class decides what ASI you get), and you pick a new class when you reach level 11, with new ones that either continue your specialization or pull you in a different path. A class would ideally be one, maybe two pages at most basically.

Furthermore, your character at level 1 would be a combination of Race, Culture, Background and Class, with beefier Background options. Race would pick your physical ability, culture would give you skill to match a certain outlook and background would represent your life before being an adventurer. One thing I would do is I'd put the current Ranger's favoured terrain as a Background or Culture feature, instead of a class feature. You're from the desert, you're good at being in the desert, for exemple. That way, most of your Social and Exploration ability would be more of a function of where you come from and class can focus more on Combat with only a few abilities for the other pillar, and no class concept would thus be completely terrible at any of the pillars.
I like the idea, though I would probably do it a bit differently. Also, now that I think about it more and after seeing your post, I am think 10 might be too many. Maybe every 5 levels you get a choice. I like the idea that choosing to stay the same path opens new features.

... 10/10/10/10/10/8 and that's how you build your ability scores. Even then, I'd probably ditch the 'Ability Score/Modifier' dichotomy and just go directly with modifiers.
You lost me here though. I am moving more and more to removing ASI and just keeping the starting stats. I think that these could change a little (maybe 2 max?), but generally you have the ability scores you start with.
 

teitan

Legend
When 3E came out, the multiclass changes hit me hard. I was playing a mage/thief in a 2E campaign, and when we converted to 3E, I naively split my classes evenly. It left me with a useless PC who was incompetent at both stealth and magic.

That was a sharp lesson to me in the importance of planning one's build when multiclassing.

yeah I just think “builds”really kill the spirit of the game. Preplanning a character for twenty levels and such. we started very much in a 1e mind set playing and the game still played like 1e but when they lifted some of those multiclassing restrictions I started having a heck of a time building encounters because some characters were absolute beasts and others were glass jaws. So it depended on mind set.
 

Undrave

Legend
You lost me here though. I am moving more and more to removing ASI and just keeping the starting stats. I think that these could change a little (maybe 2 max?), but generally you have the ability scores you start with.

Hmm... maybe you didn't get what I meant?

Well basically the idea of how it would go would be like this (taking into consideration I'm ditching the whole ability score thing and using only modifiers, since only Strength has anything calculated from the score itself and that can be replaced by a different formula):

You start with 0 in everything.

Step 1: Pick a race. The race gives you +1 to two stats and -1 to one (or just a floating +1 if you're a human)
Step 2: Pick a culture. This gives you another +1 to a stat.
Step 3: Pick a background. This give you a +1 to two other stats.
Step 4: Pick a class. This gives you a +2 to your main stat and +1 to a secondary stat

This gives you, over six stats, a cumulative modifier bonus of +7, which is about what you can get with a Standard array and the current races. It also brings back the much vaunted racial penalty for all you grognards :p

And then some classes, probably not all of them (I'm thinking mostly the physical ones) give you a flat +1 to put in a specific stat. Basically it's a mandatory ASI as a class feature.
 

dave2008

Legend
Hmm... maybe you didn't get what I meant?

Well basically the idea of how it would go would be like this (taking into consideration I'm ditching the whole ability score thing and using only modifiers, since only Strength has anything calculated from the score itself and that can be replaced by a different formula):

You start with 0 in everything.

Step 1: Pick a race. The race gives you +1 to two stats and -1 to one (or just a floating +1 if you're a human)
Step 2: Pick a culture. This gives you another +1 to a stat.
Step 3: Pick a background. This give you a +1 to two other stats.
Step 4: Pick a class. This gives you a +2 to your main stat and +1 to a secondary stat

This gives you, over six stats, a cumulative modifier bonus of +7, which is about what you can get with a Standard array and the current races. It also brings back the much vaunted racial penalty for all you grognards :p

And then some classes, probably not all of them (I'm thinking mostly the physical ones) give you a flat +1 to put in a specific stat. Basically it's a mandatory ASI as a class feature.
OK, I understand now. I thing there is some merit to that approach, but I wouldn't want to start at 0 (or 10). Unless I am missing something, this would give everyone who picked the same class, race, culture, and background the same stats, which I don't like. I like the idea of all of those things providing mechanical benefits, I just don't know if they all need to be stat boost (though it could be,or are part of the benefit at leasts), and I don't think those should be the only things that determine stats. Some times nature does gives us different stats. My son has the same race, culture, background, & class (TBD), but he is 5" taller than me and stronger than me. I feel that variability should still be a part of the game
 

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top