D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

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Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 
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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

dave2008

Legend
Okay so keeping the +4 to STR, +1 to CON, +1 to INT, 0 to DES, +2 to WIS and -1 to CHA, I went and rolled a couple of 3d8s, dropping the lowest, and I got the followng results:

9, 9, 10, 6, 14, 15
8, 12, 6, 13, 15, 11
3, 9, 11, 8, 12, 14
15, 7, 15, 15, 14, 14
13, 14, 16, 11, 9, 5

Not a big fan of this much swinginess. I didn't bother calculating the bonuses as a result. The third guy is pitiful and the fourth array is over powered.
To be clear I am looking for a max score of 18. However, it seems a point-buy variant would be more up your alley. The % chance of scores is pretty close to 4d6 drop 1 so a point-buy or standard array would produce similar results. I am fine with this approach, but you could do something like 5d4 drop the lowest to narrow the range. That would make it less random, but to be honest I don't think random generation is what you want at anyway.
 

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Weiley31

Legend
When 3E came out, the multiclass changes hit me hard. I was playing a mage/thief in a 2E campaign, and when we converted to 3E, I naively split my classes evenly. It left me with a useless PC who was incompetent at both stealth and magic.

That was a sharp lesson to me in the importance of planning one's build when multiclassing.
Perhaps one of the biggest reasons WHY, aside from the mental math overload, I wasn't big on 3.5 Multi-Classing. How easy it was to make a guy that couldn't do crap if you weren't careful.
 

Undrave

Legend
To be clear I am looking for a max score of 18. However, it seems a point-buy variant would be more up your alley. The % chance of scores is pretty close to 4d6 drop 1 so a point-buy or standard array would produce similar results. I am fine with this approach, but you could do something like 5d4 drop the lowest to narrow the range. That would make it less random, but to be honest I don't think random generation is what you want at anyway.

I have a LOT of bad experience in boardgames where I get screwed over by bad dice rolls... It was particularly bad in Eclipse... Spend turn after turn and ressource after ressource to build up some decent spaceships only to roll crap in every combat, not matter how much I invested in upgrades and see all those turns WASTED.

But I guess a lot of people love their chance at god-tier stats...

I think I'd rather just let someone else design a working randomized generation method and just use my method as the basis around which the rest of my system would be built. Once there's a bigger picture it'd be easier to tack on a satisfactory method.

Or we could just straight up roll the starting modifiers! 1d6-1d4, in order for exemple!

0, 0, +1, +1, -1, -1
+1, 0, +2, +1, -2, +1
-1, +2, 0, +1, -1, +1

Add our exemple set of modifiers and you get:

STR +4, CON +1, INT +2, DEX +1, WIS +1, CHA -2, total: +7.
STR +5, CON +1, INT +3, DEX +1, WIS 0, CHA 0, total: +10
STR +3, CON +3, INT +1, DEX +1, WIS +1, CHA 0, total: +9

I know you like the ability score thing, but how's that for injecting randomness without removing the build concep from the different choices? It should be roughly equal to a starting 0 everywhere but you could always throw an extra floating +1 for those who forego rolling.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
I want it to be: I rolled a 17 in Intelligence and can play any class I want.

Comments like that make me think of Fate Accelerated. You don't have "baseball card" stats like D&D (and most games). Instead, you have Forceful, Sneaky, Careful, Clever, Quick, and Flashy (and the words can be tweaked for setting). Any of the descriptors could apply to a character in any of the classes. Stuff like Physical Strength, which we usually associate with "stats" is left to other character traits.
 

dave2008

Legend
But I guess a lot of people love their chance at god-tier stats...
Or sub-optimal stats. Those can be some of the most fun characters.
I know you like the ability score thing, but how's that for injecting randomness without removing the build concep from the different choices? It should be roughly equal to a starting 0 everywhere but you could always throw an extra floating +1 for those who forego rolling.
Doesn't do anything for me, but if it works for you - have at it.
 

dave2008

Legend
Comments like that make me think of Fate Accelerated. You don't have "baseball card" stats like D&D (and most games). Instead, you have Forceful, Sneaky, Careful, Clever, Quick, and Flashy (and the words can be tweaked for setting). Any of the descriptors could apply to a character in any of the classes. Stuff like Physical Strength, which we usually associate with "stats" is left to other character traits.
Sure, but that was not my point. I reject the notion that if I have a certain stat, I have to be certain class. I prefer to pick a class and make it work with whatever stats I have. That is more interesting to me. I will never truly understand the plan your character out and/or optimize your character crowd. It is just not how a play RPGs.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sure, but that was not my point. I reject the notion that if I have a certain stat, I have to be certain class. I prefer to pick a class and make it work with whatever stats I have. That is more interesting to me. I will never truly understand the plan your character out and/or optimize your character crowd. It is just not how a play RPGs.

It is when you are trying to emulate fictional characters - which while having some quirks are usually pretty good at their primary functions.
 

dave2008

Legend
It is when you are trying to emulate fictional characters - which while having some quirks are usually pretty good at their primary functions.
Trying to emulate someone else's fictional character? I guess I played that way many moons ago, but now I like different things.
 
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I enjoyed this article, because I really like seeing how designers think. Every design choice, including the bad ones, had a rationale behind it, and it's great to see what sort of thought went into them.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I don't know whose idea it was originally. Might even have been mine, but I'm not trying to take credit.

I am altogether fond of "use the better result from two different approaches", especially in Alternity where there are optional "random by species" and "random by profession" options-- which are each guaranteed to meet their respective minimums, but require some accommodation for species maximums.

I have been thinking a lot about trying to incorporate something like that into D&D...
Something I've been noodling with tangentially related to that is the idea of stat bonuses also giving a stat floor. Basicially, you roll 4d6k3 in order. Then you apply your racial bonuses, but if a stat you give a +1 bonus to is still less than 12, you make it a 12. If stat you give a +2 bonus to is still less than 14, make it a 14. Then your class gives a +3 bonus to its main stat, and it's still less than 16, you make it a 16. No stat can be higher than an 17 after bonuses (exception, a naturally rolled 18 can stay an 18).
 

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