On Behavioral Realism

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, there are some very strange impacts on culture and society if we decide to take the rules of the game as the physics of the world. It's not bad, necessarily, but it creates a world that resembles our own less and less. Imagine what a society would look like if it were true that the more peril you put yourself in, the more superhuman you became and more quickly?

I always assume this was only true for the PCs, who are more discovering their power than magically gaining power by fighting bodaks.

 

[Reynard]

I always assume this was only true for the PCs, who are more discovering their power than magically gaining power by fighting bodaks.

I like it when the PCs are exemplary for what they do different than (most of) the rest of the world rather than just because they happen to be PCs.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I like it when the PCs are exemplary for what they do different than (most of) the rest of the world rather than just because they happen to be PCs.

okay. What’s that got to do with what I said, though? The two don’t (necessarily) conflict.

 

[Reynard]

okay. What’s that got to do with what I said, though? The two don’t (necessarily) conflict.

You said "I always assume this is only true of the PCs" which I interpreted as meaning that only PCs level up, and as such what I was saying is that the PCs are not inherently different than the NPCs from an in world perspective. What makes them different isn't that they gain XP and level up and gain powers. What makes them different is that they are willing to go into holes looking for treasure.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You said "I always assume this is only true of the PCs" which I interpreted as meaning that only PCs level up, and as such what I was saying is that the PCs are not inherently different than the NPCs from an in world perspective. What makes them different isn't that they gain XP and level up and gain powers. What makes them different is that they are willing to go into holes looking for treasure.

The mechanics don’t reflect the “physics”. The PCs are tangibly more powerful than most people, at level 1. Whether that is reflected in the fiction is up to the group.
NPCs don’t level up unless the DM decides they do because the NPCs aren’t PCs. That’s it.
Unless the DM decides otherwise, the town guards don’t level up when they defend their town from a monster that’s worth plenty of xp to level up a party of 1st level PCs, because the guards aren’t PCs.

 

[Reynard]

The mechanics don’t reflect the “physics”. The PCs are tangibly more powerful than most people, at level 1. Whether that is reflected in the fiction is up to the group.
NPCs don’t level up unless the DM decides they do because the NPCs aren’t PCs. That’s it.
Unless the DM decides otherwise, the town guards don’t level up when they defend their town from a monster that’s worth plenty of xp to level up a party of 1st level PCs, because the guards aren’t PCs.

That's a perfectly valid way to view the world and the relationship between it and the player characters. However, i don't particularly like that view. It makes the PCs special just for being PCs. There's no reason a town guard couldn't gain a level after helping defend from the orc attack. After all, that's a perfectly valid player character backstory.

This is actually related to the overall idea of behavioral realism: plot armor, special status and relative power level are all things that contribute to players not taking their characters' place in the world seriously or realistically. As such they don't worry about mundane stuff like being tired, hungry or dirty.

I'm not saying PCs aren't special. They are the protagonists, so the things that happen in the game necessarily center on them. But they aren't, in my view, categorically different than the other characters and creatures that inhabit the world. They are different by deed.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's a perfectly valid way to view the world and the relationship between it and the player characters. However, i don't particularly like that view. It makes the PCs special just for being PCs. There's no reason a town guard couldn't gain a level after helping defend from the orc attack. After all, that's a perfectly valid player character backstory.

This is actually related to the overall idea of behavioral realism: plot armor, special status and relative power level are all things that contribute to players not taking their characters' place in the world seriously or realistically. As such they don't worry about mundane stuff like being tired, hungry or dirty.

I'm not saying PCs aren't special. They are the protagonists, so the things that happen in the game necessarily center on them. But they aren't, in my view, categorically different than the other characters and creatures that inhabit the world. They are different by deed.

Sure, and their deeds define them as PCs, which use different rules in the D&D game.

 

[Reynard]

Sure, and their deeds define them as PCs, which use different rules in the D&D game.

I don't follow your logic, insofar as it seems like you are making an authoritative statement to the effect. I could be misinterpreting you, of course. It is easy to ascribe tone to text, and if so I apologize. But if you are saying that the GAME says PCs and NPCs are categorically different in the fiction, I would say you are wrong. They use different rules (in this edition) because it makes the GM's life easier, but it doesn't mean in the fiction they are different kinds of entities.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't follow your logic, insofar as it seems like you are making an authoritative statement to the effect. I could be misinterpreting you, of course. It is easy to ascribe tone to text, and if so I apologize. But if you are saying that the GAME says PCs and NPCs are categorically different in the fiction, I would say you are wrong. They use different rules (in this edition) because it makes the GM's life easier, but it doesn't mean in the fiction they are different kinds of entities.

I didn’t say they’re categorically different in the fiction. I said they use different rules.

 

[Reynard]

I didn’t say they’re categorically different in the fiction. I said they use different rules.

I obviously misinterpreted your initial comments. My apologies.