D&D 5E Next session a character might die. Am I being a jerk?

[Oofta]

Like; the thing that makes the Drow 'evil' is they follow the edicts of Lolth and her evil pantheon (enslave, murder, betray). Those Drow that instead worship Elistraee (liberate, compassion, altruism, acceptance) are Good in alignment.

Drow are a weird case. They weren't created by an evil god, they were elves that were kicked out because they were smoking out back. They only started following Lollth because she was the only one that accepted them.

Ditto with Orcs. If you raise an Orc outside of its culture (and the worship of Gruumsh) and within the worship of a Good deity, by Good people, you likely wind up with a Good aligned Orc.

According to you. Nothing in the MM says that.

I have major problems with the colonialist nature of the attitude of "those people are evil because they don't believe what we do". More than "orcs are evil by nature".

Orcs are not real and they are not human.

 

[Umbran]

Rhetorical questions to ask yourself before you post in this thread again:

1) What is the actual root purpose of the post you are composing? What are you trying to accomplish in writing?

2) If the answer to (1) is some variation of, "Get the other person to understand how they are wrong," what has the other person done to lead you to believe that their position is open to adjustment?

3) If the answer to (2) is some variation of, "Not much," is beating your head against a rhetorical wall really something you want to do with your time?

 

[Fenris-77]

Ahh, high rhetoric eh? I don't recall saying anything about "walking murder targets", nor players 'hellbent on slaughtering every orc they can find". Whence the purple prose? I'd prefer that you didn't use rhetorical flourishes to misrepresent my position if that's all right with you.

Despite your (possibly) good intentions you are indeed telling people how to play. You're saying that orcs aren't evil, and anyone who plays that way is making a mistake in their reading of the rules. You're suggesting that the option for a DM to change the base CE alignment isn't optional. Of course it's optional, and a campaign where orcs are all evil, actually evil, is perfectly alright.

I didn't say anything about the PCs or specific PC actions though. That's all you.

 

[Flamestrike]

What about them? This is not a snarky response, I don't know what you're asking. In general demons are CE, specific types of demons (or specific demons) can break the rules.

Zariel (LE Archduchess of Avernus in Hell) was once an Angel (a LG Solar). As were all the Erinyes Devils. Every single one of them. They're all former Angels who are now Evil.

Inherently good creatures (literally comprised of the essence of Good), raised in Good places (literally in Heaven, at the service and in the presence and under the guidance of the Gods of Good) who changed alignment to Evil.

Are you saying they can fall, but Orcs cant be redeemed?

You quoted a third party source, not a core book.

As far as the Saving Private Ryan example, you totally missed the point. Yes the newbie soldiers responded in one way. Then they shot the guy on sight towards the end of the movie. Are you stating that they changed their alignments?

Yes. The horrors of war changed the translator from someone who was morally opposed to murder, to someone who would do so without blinking, or showing any emotion at all.

I think you missed the point of that scene. It wasn't 'they should have murdered that guy'. It was 'War makes good people do bad things'.

 

[Umbran]

Are you saying they can fall, but Orcs cant be redeemed?

That question is only relevant to a party of PCs if they are in a position to do the redeeming.

 

[BluejayJunior]

The thing about celestials becoming evil and devils becoming good isn't the same. Yes, Celestials are intrinsically Good and literally made of Good. They can change their alignment and become evil. But that literally changes what they are. (And I am using literally correctly, not in the figurative sense). They are not then LE celestials. Their very essence changes and they become LE devils. The fabric of their being shifts from good to evil, not just their moral outlook.
But, please, go on making straw men to support your moral argument about what everyone should think good and evil are in D&D.

 

[Flamestrike]

According to you. Nothing in the MM says that.

Page 87 of Volos Guide to Monsters (Orcs) expressly states it.

It says Orcs are not inherently evil, and if raised away from their society, could develop a capacity for empathy, love and compassion.

 

[Flamestrike]

The thing about celestials becoming evil and devils becoming good isn't the same. Yes, Celestials are intrinsically Good and literally made of Good. They can change their alignment and become evil. But that literally changes what they are. (And I am using literally correctly, not in the figurative sense). They are not then LE celestials. Their very essence changes and they become LE devils. The fabric of their being shifts from good to evil, not just their moral outlook.
But, please, go on making straw men to support your moral argument about what everyone should think good and evil are in D&D.

I've repeatedly stated if you want to say 'genocide and murder of evildoers' is a morally good act in your games, or something a morally good person would do, go nuts.

Who am I to stop you?

 

[Umbran]

Page 87 of Volos Guide to Monsters (Orcs) expressly states it.

And... if I have not bought Volo's guide?

 

[Oofta]

Zariel (LE Archduchess of Avernus in Hell) was once an Angel (a LG Solar). As were all the Erinyes Devils. Every single one of them. They're all former Angels who are now Evil.

Inherently good creatures (literally comprised of the essence of Good), raised in Good places (literally in Heaven, at the service and in the presence and under the guidance of the Gods of Good) who changed alignment to Evil.

Are you saying they can fall, but Orcs cant be redeemed?

Which goes back to how they were created. Good generally values freedom of will, evil does not. But more to the point these are specific exceptions spelled out in the MM, there is no corollary for orcs.

I will say this. I can see why some people might think there are exceptions to the "orcs are evil" rule. Let's say for a moment there is. But what would the consequence be? Assume for a moment that orcs are evil by nature (which I believe the MM says). So let's say a small percentage are not evil.

How many? Well this would be effectively deviant behavior so let's say they're the equivalent of a sociopath. About 1% of people today are considered sociopaths. While 25% of the prison population are sociopaths, many sociopaths just deal with their lack of empathy and are productive members of society. Others are Hannibal Lecter.

So if similar numbers applied to orcs (again, just a thought experiment) then 1% of orcs are not evil. But while the majority of them may not be driven by an insatiable hunger for slaughter, most are probably just going to go along with it as a matter of survival.

So let's guesstimate that 25% of the 1% buck the trend. Well then somehow they still need to escape, find a new home and so on.

But if they escape they find a hostile world. After all every orc anyone has ever met was an enemy. Could it happen? I've decided that in my campaign it's effectively 0.

So orcs in my world are effectively all evil. The odds of running across an orc that is not evil is so small it doesn't matter. It may be different in your campaign.

Beyond that I don't see a reason to continue this conversation.