D&D 5E Next session a character might die. Am I being a jerk?

[Flamestrike]

Where? Where does it say that other than the standard "the DM can change things if they want"?

Read the entry for Fiends and Angels (monster types).

Despite being literally comprised of cosmic good or evil and thus inherently good or evil by nature, both angels and fiends exist of evil and good alignments respectively.

Heck Grazzt used to be a LE Devil before he was a Demon. Zariel was a LG Solar before she was an Archduchess of Hell. Even Asmodeus himself is hinted at being a fallen Angel, as indeed are the entire species of devil the Erinyes - literally all of them were once (cosmically and inherently) LG Angels.

Or are you saying that only Angels and Fiends can be different alignments (and Drow because Drizzt, and Baenre whatshername) but Orcs... cant?

Like; the thing that makes the Drow 'evil' is they follow the edicts of Lolth and her evil pantheon (enslave, murder, betray). Those Drow that instead worship Elistraee (liberate, compassion, altruism, acceptance) are Good in alignment.

Ditto with Orcs. If you raise an Orc outside of its culture (and the worship of Gruumsh) and within the worship of a Good deity, by Good people, you likely wind up with a Good aligned Orc.

 

[Oofta]

In your view, can a morally Good person contemplate murder, without agonising over it?

In my view if that 'morally good' person doesn't agonise over potentially committing a murder (even of a vile victim) they're not morally a Good person.

Heck; in my view no morally Good person commits murders.

In no other place other than a role-playing forum does the above sentence attract debate.



Because firstly, they're not inherently evil. And even for creatures that ARE inherently evil (Fiends) there are examples (RAW, explained in the Monster Manual) of extremely rare Good ones. And inherently Good creatures (Angels) becoming evil.

So not only are they not inherently evil, even if they were, there would be Good (and Neutral) ones out there.

And the characters cant know their alignment, any more than you can know mine. They can make subjective judgements of course.

Heck, plenty of Evil PCs probably dont see themselves (or Orcs for that matter) as being evil at all.



Of course they're not human. They're Orcs. Elves arent human either, and neither are Dwarves so who cares?

Ditto with the 'monster created for the sole purpose of war'. My that metric Warforged are in a lot of strife as well arent they?

Soldiers often don't have the luxury to agonize over consequences. Ever see Private Ryan?

Spoiler

At one point they let a Nazi soldier go. Later on he kills one of the soldiers without remorse. He shows up again and they just shoot him. It's not pretty, it's not right, it's war.

But I simply don't throw orc babies into my campaign. They may as well not exist as far as I'm concerned. It's a game in a world where there is definable good and evil, not to mention literal monsters.

Are some dwarves evil? Well, they aren't listed as a monster except for Shield Dwarf which is campaign/mod specific. The PHB lists them as usually LG.

In my campaign there have been a few different evil dwarves (and elves and gnomes and...) but to me there's a difference. An evil god is going to want yes-men. Extensions of their will that will always do what their told. Endless war in the case of orcs.

Good gods? Moradin? He wanted children, creations. Good values freedom of will over blind obedience even if that freedom of will sometimes leads down a dark path.

If you are going to state that fiends have a different set of rules concerning alignment as if it is RAW please provide a quote and source.

As far as the rest ... feel free to modify the rules as you see fit.

 

[Flamestrike]

Let's say that Paladin started as LN. If you were DMing that game would you say he's playing that alignment?

Lawful Evil. With a capital E. He's literally engaging in slavery, murder, torture and genocide. It doesnt get more evil that that.

He's adhering to his tenets as a Vengeance Paladin though just fine. No problem with his Oath.

That said, when he dies, he's in for a rude shock when he gets judged False by Kelemvor (presuming his deity is Good aligned) and sent packing to the Nine Hells.

 

[Oofta]

Read the entry for Fiends and Angels (monster types).

Despite being literally comprised of cosmic good or evil and thus inherently good or evil by nature, both angels and fiends exist of evil and good alignments respectively.

Heck Grazzt used to be a LE Devil before he was a Demon. Zariel was a LG Solar before she was an Archduchess of Hell. Even Asmodeus himself is hinted at being a fallen Angel, as indeed are the entire species of devil the Erinyes - literally all of them were once (cosmically and inherently) LG Angels.

Or are you saying that only Angels and Fiends can be different alignments (and Drow because Drizzt, and Baenre whatshername) but Orcs... cant?

Like; the thing that makes the Drow 'evil' is they follow the edicts of Lolth and her evil pantheon (enslave, murder, betray). Those Drow that instead worship Elistraee (liberate, compassion, altruism, acceptance) are Good in alignment.

Ditto with Orcs. If you raise an Orc outside of its culture (and the worship of Gruumsh) and within the worship of a Good deity, by Good people, you likely wind up with a Good aligned Orc.

I have read the MM. Fiends are created by the abyss. Orcs were created by an evil god Gruumsh. So?

Drizzt is campaign specific.

 

[Fenris-77]

The moral relativism thing is a canard. If all you're going to do is repeat that one same thing, and not address any of the other issues brought up that complicate your position I'm not sure why I'd bother to reply any more. Your reading of the rules isn't canon, nor are other people bad for playing orcs the way they are written. This isn't really a complicated issue, and it mostly comes down to you thinking that you get to tell other people how to play. Sorry my friend, that's not how it is.

 

[Flamestrike]

Soldiers often don't have the luxury to agonize over consequences. Ever see Private Ryan?

So? The Captain made that choice because he was a morally Good man. He agonised over it, and ultimately et the dude go. Ditto with the translator guy as well (also morally Good at that stage of the film)

If you are going to state that fiends have a different set of rules concerning alignment as if it is RAW please provide a quote and source.

OK, fair enough:

Celestials are creatures native to the Upper Planes. Many of them are the servants of deities, employed as messengers or agents in the mortal realm and throughout the planes. Celestials are good by nature, so the exceptional celestial who strays from a good alignment is a horrifying rarity.

Inherently good. Evil ones exist (but are rare) notwithstanding this inherent cosmic goodness.

See also; Zariel and every single Erinyes Devil that exists.

Fiends are creatures of wickedness that are native to the Lower Planes. A few are the servants of deities, but many more labor under the leadership of archdevils and demon princes. Evil priests and mages sometimes summon fiends to the material world to do their bidding. If an evil celestial is a rarity, a good fiend is almost inconceivable. Fiends include demons, devils, hell hounds, rakshasas, and yugoloths.

Almost inconceivable. As in; they exist but are so rare as to be rarer than hens teeth'.

Far more common is the Devil that ceases being Lawful. See also: Grazzt, Demon Prince (who was once a LE Devil before becoming a Demon).

Monsters By Type – 5th Edition SRD

Taken straight from the list of types in the MM.

So even being cosmically and inherently evil, lawful, chaotic and/or good doesnt matter. Examples exist of Fiends and Celestials with different (and even opposing) alignments from what they are literally made out of, and changing alignment (redemption, or falling from grace) is possible.

Even for Demons and Angels.

Or is it your view that Celestials can become Evil, and Devils can become Chaotic, but Orcs cant renounce evil some reason?

 

[Flamestrike]

I have read the MM. Fiends are created by the abyss. Orcs were created by an evil god Gruumsh. So?

Drizzt is campaign specific.

And the Abyss isnt campaign specific? My Eberron players want to talk to you about this.

What About Zariel, Archduchess of Hell? Or the Erinyes? Or Grazzt? Whats your reasoning there?

 

[Flamestrike]

it mostly comes down to you thinking that you get to tell other people how to play. Sorry my friend, that's not how it is.

I'm not telling you how to play. And if I were, why on earth would you listen?

I'm disagreeing with your assessment of Orcs (or anything else for that matter) as walking murder targets due to nothing more than the default alignment they have in the Monster Manual.

If I were to agree with that position, it leads to the goodly races of the setting being no different from the Orcs.

It would be an interesting campaign to run with PCs hellbent on slaughtering every Orc they could find and taking their stuff simply because of the assumption that 'they're Orcs and Orcs are evil', only to find out at the end of the Campaign that the PCs are really the evil ones (regardless of whatever they have written on their character sheets) and the Orcs are only fighting back in self defence (and are actually Neutral aligned).

Sort of an 'I am Legend' or 'The Last of Us' vibe.

 

[Oofta]

So? The Captain made that choice because he was a morally Good man. He agonised over it, and ultimately et the dude go. Ditto with the translator guy as well (also morally Good at that stage of the film)



OK, fair enough:

Celestials are creatures native to the Upper Planes. Many of them are the servants of deities, employed as messengers or agents in the mortal realm and throughout the planes. Celestials are good by nature, so the exceptional celestial who strays from a good alignment is a horrifying rarity.

Inherently good. Evil ones exist (but are rare) notwithstanding this inherent cosmic goodness.

See also; Zariel and every single Erinyes Devil that exists.

Fiends are creatures of wickedness that are native to the Lower Planes. A few are the servants of deities, but many more labor under the leadership of archdevils and demon princes. Evil priests and mages sometimes summon fiends to the material world to do their bidding. If an evil celestial is a rarity, a good fiend is almost inconceivable. Fiends include demons, devils, hell hounds, rakshasas, and yugoloths.

Almost inconceivable. As in; they exist but are so rare as to be rarer than hens teeth'.

Far more common is the Devil that ceases being Lawful. See also: Grazzt, Demon Prince (who was once a LE Devil before becoming a Demon).

Monsters By Type – 5th Edition SRD

Taken straight from the list of types in the MM.

So even being cosmically and inherently evil, lawful, chaotic and/or good doesnt matter. Examples exist of Fiends and Celestials with different (and even opposing) alignments from what they are literally made out of, and changing alignment (redemption, or falling from grace) is possible.

Even for Demons and Angels.

Or is it your view that Celestials can become Evil, and Devils can become Chaotic, but Orcs cant renounce evil some reason?

You quoted a third party source, not a core book.

As far as the Saving Private Ryan example, you totally missed the point. Yes the newbie soldiers responded in one way. Then they shot the guy on sight towards the end of the movie. Are you stating that they changed their alignments?

EDIT: Never mind the source book. It's in the intro to the MM.

However, that's not what people have said. People repeat like a mantra that "Orcs are only usually evil but fiends are always evil". Yet ... you just pointed out where that's not true.

But that also applies to fiends as a category not one particular monster.

 

[Oofta]

And the Abyss isnt campaign specific? My Eberron players want to talk to you about this.

What About Zariel, Archduchess of Hell? Or the Erinyes? Or Grazzt? Whats your reasoning there?

What about them? This is not a snarky response, I don't know what you're asking. In general demons are CE, specific types of demons (or specific demons) can break the rules.