D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Chaosmancer]

More or less. It's probably closer to 75%. I'd want some Psionesque class abilities, and over 20 levels those are probably 25% of the class. And I don't need it to be spell points, but wouldn't mind if it was.

What sort of abilities? Things like the Telepathy shown in the UA?

 

[Maxperson]

What sort of abilities? Things like the Telepathy shown in the UA?

This is the hard part. Coming up with abilities. Telepathy could be one. I like the talent die mechanic, so maybe some abilities that use that. Maybe a kinetic screen that uses the die for defense. Either damage reduction, or maybe talent die to AC as a reaction like shield, though that seems a bit powerful. Maybe a talent die boost. Raise the die type one higher for 1 minute with concentration. When done the die automatically goes one die lower. There are tons of things and different ways to implement them.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Close. If they made psionics use mostly the same spells as other classes, but called them powers and they didn't require VSM, that would be consisted with WotC's position in 3e and 5e, as well as TSR in 2e. You can see that position in this new UA where if the Sorcerer uses his power to turn a spell into a power, it loses its VSM.

I don't need a totally new system. It can be magic and use the same spells, and can even be something other than power points, but the spells(powers) should not have VSM.

Well, WotC doesn't have a 5e position (you might have noticed a playtest?).

I don't understand the no VSM. I'm trying to think of a psionic system other than D&D that doesn't have them. I'm sure there is one, but psionics have often been paired with crystals, mantras, foci, and gestures in many fictional sources. Heck, Spock often used verbal and somatic bits for the mind meld.

This just seems an odd hill and I don't see what it fulfills. Other than, I guess, appealing to tradtion?

 

[Maxperson]

Well, WotC doesn't have a 5e position (you might have noticed a playtest?).

They clearly do. Every iteration of psionics testing AND with monsters has psionics lacking VSM. That's a position and a very clear one. It just hasn't become RAW as far as PC classes yet.

I don't understand the no VSM. I'm trying to think of a psionic system other than D&D that doesn't have them.

I don't know and I don't care. Where it comes from is that psionics is purely mental power. You don't need components for that. You don't need to speak. You don't need bat poop. And you don't need to wiggle your fingers in a certain manner. If other systems use those things, they use systems that I would not enjoy and don't make much sense.

Heck, Spock often used verbal and somatic bits for the mind meld.

Because TV, not because psionics. Trying to use TV and movies as evidence is highly flawed, because what makes for good psionics is bad for cinema. So TV and movies have to put in motions, words, etc. to be entertaining.

This just seems an odd hill and I don't see what it fulfills. Other than, I guess, appealing to tradtion?

Tradition has nothing to do with it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

They clearly do. Every iteration of psionics testing AND with monsters has psionics lacking VSM. That's a position and a very clear one. It just hasn't become RAW as far as PC classes yet.

Um, the most recent does not. We have psionics, because it's a psionic sub-class, but it doesn't dispense with VSM. I get that you argue that it's just spells and not psionic powers, but there are no psionic powers, so that's as useful as saying it's not the Titanic. We do have Mind Flayers that can innately cast spells without VSM, but, again, those are spells, not powers, so it would seem that you can have it one way or the other.

I don't know and I don't care. Where it comes from is that psionics is purely mental power. You don't need components for that. You don't need to speak. You don't need bat poop. And you don't need to wiggle your fingers in a certain manner. If other systems use those things, they use systems that I would not enjoy and don't make much sense.

This is begging the question. You've defined psionics as not needed VSM, so therefore if it has VSM it's not psionics. What does no VSM get you to, other than a circular defintion or tradition? IE, do you actually have more that just wanting it that way to support the need to never, ever have VSM if it's psionics in D&D? It's cool if it's just a thing for you -- no sweat. But, to convince others, you can't just keep screaming that it has to be this one way because reasons.

Because TV, not because psionics. Trying to use TV and movies as evidence is highly flawed, because what makes for good psionics is bad for cinema. So TV and movies have to put in motions, words, etc. to be entertaining.

Sorry, but what makes for good psionics? I've read books that have components to psionics. Why does psionics need to be undetectable when used? Even that's not part of the tradition in D&D, as there were manifestations of the power when used. What's the difference?

Tradition has nothing to do with it.

Right, so we're back to an odd hill. Why die on it?

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Tradition has nothing to do with it.

So you admit that you want it for purely gameplay reasons, like say, for example, being unable to counterspell it?

 

[Maxperson]

So you admit that you want it for purely gameplay reasons, like say, for example, being unable to counterspell it?

I've never argued that it should not be counterspelled. Why would I admit to something you've made up?

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is the hard part. Coming up with abilities. Telepathy could be one. I like the talent die mechanic, so maybe some abilities that use that. Maybe a kinetic screen that uses the die for defense. Either damage reduction, or maybe talent die to AC as a reaction like shield, though that seems a bit powerful. Maybe a talent die boost. Raise the die type one higher for 1 minute with concentration. When done the die automatically goes one die lower. There are tons of things and different ways to implement them.

Other than the AC reaction, most of those are in the UA already, based on the subclasses.

Oh, not the increasing a die via concentration, but I don't see that as being something people would use since taking up a concentration slot is a big deal.

Add in the feats to give everyone Psionics, and it seems other than having a full class without VSM, you have most of what you want.

I've never argued that it should not be counterspelled. Why would I admit to something you've made up?

Per the RAW, if it has no VSM, it can't be counterspelled. So, you are de facto arguing for them to be immune to counterspell because of how counterspelling relies on VSM to activate

 

[Maxperson]

Um, the most recent does not.

The recent 100% does.

"When you cast a spell, you can use your mind to form it, rather than relying on words, gestures, and materials. To do so, roll your Psionic Talent die. The spell then requires no verbal component, and if you rolled the level of the spell or higher, the spell doesn’t require somatic or material components either."

If you roll high enough, you can turn the spell into a psionic power which then has no VSM.

This is begging the question. You've defined psionics as not needed VSM, so therefore if it has VSM it's not psionics. What does no VSM get you to, other than a circular defintion or tradition?

It gets you to an accurate approximation of psionics. That's not tradition.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

It gets you to an accurate approximation of psionics. That's not tradition.

So you would say it's how psionics traditionally operate?