Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[dave2008]

Then how do you explain why a wizard who has learned fireball still has to decipher a new version of it if he finds another spellbook?

That's not how it works in my games. However, if it did I would explain it like this:

the core Fireball requires you to hold a gram of sulfur & 2 grams of guano in one hand clinched in a fist with your thumb turned up, you then smack the bottom of your fist with the palm of your other hand while saying "Ignus."

However, various traditions over the years have added additional gestures, words, and material components. These haven't change the spell (at some point they do and you get spell failure and/or a new spell), but they have hidden the core requirements such that no one knows which exactly are the core components.

So are you saying that there is a core that remains constant, but other schools add mumbo jumbo fluff that doesn't matter?

Yes, pretty much. It is showmanship. Look at the quote by @Kinematics above

 

[dave2008]

I use the words differently. Psionics are fantastical, sure. And in that sense it is fantasy, sure.

But for me the genre of Fantasy means knights and wizards and dragons and gold. And for that, psionics are as poor a fit as are gnomish mechanical contraptions.

Yes, I agree the genres of "sci-fi" and "fantasy" are different (and sometimes muddled). I just wanted to be clear that IRL, PSI is science fantasy, not just science fiction. Also, IRL people often take Sci-fi to simple be indication of will come to pass, that "science" and technology will get us there. That is not the case with PSI and some other things we associate with sci-fi.

 

[dave2008]

My own interpretation of the workings of magic is that, while science will tell you the exact steps you need to get a particular result, and any person who follows those steps will always get exactly the same result, magic gives you things that are conceptually related to the idea of the effect you want to create — perhaps on top of hard mechanics that tap into some universal power source, but those mechanics are never sufficient in and of themselves.

The bat guano of a fireball only works because of a conceptual association. You could transfer that association to, say, gunpowder, and it will still work if that association is still maintained (but won't work if the conceptual part is broken). Likewise, someone attempting to cast fireball with bat guano, but doesn't have a grasp of the association thereof, will not be able to cast the spell.

Essentially, that's the difference I see between science and magic. With science, what you believe doesn't matter; the universe will continue to behave the way it always has. A gun will always be a gun, no matter who shoots it. With magic, what you believe does matter, which is why it's difficult to transfer knowledge from one person to another, and why you have to study another wizard's magic book to figure out his spells. You have to not only understand the mechanics, but also the underlying conceptions and metaphysical associations, and then translate those to your own versions of each.

Edit: An alternate, simpler description: Science is objective reality; Magic is subjective reality.

I like the idea of a concept understanding, but I personally wouldn't divorce it from the components. I would say you need the concept and some core components. So, in my view you couldn't replace the guano with gun powder, the spell would fail. However, you could add gun powder and it likely wouldn't have any effect on the spell, as long as you have everything else.

 

[dave2008]

There will be tricks, secrets and techniques that will aid you when learned, ...

That is the foundation of science.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Psionics evokes the feel of science. It sounds like a science term, because it uses similiar language to science terms.

But, it is still just magic with a science coat of paint. In fact, I doubt you could find Psionics in a purely "Hard Sci-fi" setting, because we don't have the science to explain how it could really work.

Sure, but this description also applies to Star Trek, which I don’t think anyone doubts is sci-fi. It is the IP that gave us the term “technobabble”.

 

[dave2008]

Sure, but this description also applies to Star Trek, which I don’t think anyone doubts is sci-fi. It is the IP that gave us the term “technobabble”.

I would argue that Star Trek is in the science fiction genre, but some of its tenets are definitely science-fantasy (aka magic): transporters, vulcan mind meld, warp travel by thought, etc., dilithium crystals

 

[Chaosmancer]

I use the words differently. Psionics are fantastical, sure. And in that sense it is fantasy, sure.

But for me the genre of Fantasy means knights and wizards and dragons and gold. And for that, psionics are as poor a fit as are gnomish mechanical contraptions.

Eh, I get the preference, but since most of my fantasy reading has not involved any of that for a long while, I just can't agree to it.

I mean, the Stormlight archive doesn't have wizards, dragons, gold, or anything medieval (technically knights, but even that is far different than what you mean) but I still see it as Fantasy

Sure, but this description also applies to Star Trek, which I don’t think anyone doubts is sci-fi. It is the IP that gave us the term “technobabble”.

Technobabble gets close, I'd put it just on the other side of the blurry line.

But, as I pointed out earlier, for me Sci-Fi tends to be much more about the "time" of the setting. Futuristic settings tend to feel scifi to me, even when they are also very magical and fantasy-esque in tone and adventure.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I'm glad to see an interesting discussion other than just a blanket argument on whether or not there should be 5e psionics.

My attempt to lay out...

Why I think that in fiction the term "Psionics" and "Magic" are generally interchangeable but then I disagree with myself and will go on to say that in Dungeons & Dragons psionics should exist and should be unrelated to Magic.

In the Forgotten Realms it is established that there is a "thing" called The Weave. It can be destroyed, it can be built, it can be altered, and for some characters it can be interacted with. A 5th edition character in 5e might interact with the Weave by casting spells, having a magic item, using a scroll, using a spell-like power, or many of probably hundreds of different items and abilities. If, in 5e Forgotten Realms something is "magic" then it works via using The Weave as its method of making changes on the plane. Arcane spells use it, powers granted by gods use it, if you think "Primal" is a source then even Nature itself uses it (midichlorians???).

In 5e there is also, clearly, the ability to make changes on the plane in a purely physical manner. You can chop down a tree or punch someone in the face and knock them out. There is an expected level to what you can accomplish (you can jump 10 feet but not 40 miles) based on a level of science that roughly equals our own world. In the REAL WORLD giants can't exist because reasons (I want to say oxygen levels in the atmosphere and inability to exchange gasses, but i'm not quoting it because its not important to the conversation) however there are plenty of giants in the Forgotten Realms. This isn't because The Weave is required for giants to live, but because the laws of science in the FR are not our real world laws.

So the question conceptually about psionics is.....can there be another force in the Forgotten Realms that allows work to be done on the plane, but that isn't The Weave or physical actions? If you believe that "Psionics is different" then you are saying yes, there is this totally different way that this can be done, and it doesn't use the weave. I frequently hear people say that the idea of disentangling something from magic (The Weave) is just a powergame move, but in actuality there is already a core class that does this "affect the world in a way that uses some other power than The Weave to let me do something that breaks physical laws of the Forgotten Realms as we know it, and that class is the Monk.

The Monk uses "Ki", a resource that is not explained in detail as to how it works to do things like attack faster, use telepathy, avoid negative effects, and stun enemies and yet not one of those powers uses "The Weave" nor can they be stopped by a counterspell or anti-magic field. The monk can even use this nonmagical (but non-mundane) "Ki" energy to affect The Weave and cast spells if they take the correct path to do so.

I like the idea of there being more to the world than just "Magic" and I like to think of Magic as being synonymous with "The Weave". I like to think that some characters have power sources other than magic, and I like to think that all the different sources CAN interact with each other but don't necessarily HAVE TO interact with each other.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm glad to see an interesting discussion other than just a blanket argument on whether or not there should be 5e psionics.

My attempt to lay out...

Why I think that in fiction the term "Psionics" and "Magic" are generally interchangeable but then I disagree with myself and will go on to say that in Dungeons & Dragons psionics should exist and should be unrelated to Magic.

In the Forgotten Realms it is established that there is a "thing" called The Weave. It can be destroyed, it can be built, it can be altered, and for some characters it can be interacted with. A 5th edition character in 5e might interact with the Weave by casting spells, having a magic item, using a scroll, using a spell-like power, or many of probably hundreds of different items and abilities. If, in 5e Forgotten Realms something is "magic" then it works via using The Weave as its method of making changes on the plane. Arcane spells use it, powers granted by gods use it, if you think "Primal" is a source then even Nature itself uses it (midichlorians???).

In 5e there is also, clearly, the ability to make changes on the plane in a purely physical manner. You can chop down a tree or punch someone in the face and knock them out. There is an expected level to what you can accomplish (you can jump 10 feet but not 40 miles) based on a level of science that roughly equals our own world. In the REAL WORLD giants can't exist because reasons (I want to say oxygen levels in the atmosphere and inability to exchange gasses, but i'm not quoting it because its not important to the conversation) however there are plenty of giants in the Forgotten Realms. This isn't because The Weave is required for giants to live, but because the laws of science in the FR are not our real world laws.

So the question conceptually about psionics is.....can there be another force in the Forgotten Realms that allows work to be done on the plane, but that isn't The Weave or physical actions? If you believe that "Psionics is different" then you are saying yes, there is this totally different way that this can be done, and it doesn't use the weave. I frequently hear people say that the idea of disentangling something from magic (The Weave) is just a powergame move, but in actuality there is already a core class that does this "affect the world in a way that uses some other power than The Weave to let me do something that breaks physical laws of the Forgotten Realms as we know it, and that class is the Monk.

The Monk uses "Ki", a resource that is not explained in detail as to how it works to do things like attack faster, use telepathy, avoid negative effects, and stun enemies and yet not one of those powers uses "The Weave" nor can they be stopped by a counterspell or anti-magic field. The monk can even use this nonmagical (but non-mundane) "Ki" energy to affect The Weave and cast spells if they take the correct path to do so.

I like the idea of there being more to the world than just "Magic" and I like to think of Magic as being synonymous with "The Weave". I like to think that some characters have power sources other than magic, and I like to think that all the different sources CAN interact with each other but don't necessarily HAVE TO interact with each other.

Point of order about 5e, magic, and "The Weave"

It has been definitively stated that there is "background magic" that infuses everything that allows for creatures like Dragons and Giants.

The Weave is simply an interface that allows mortals to channel and utilize that background magic.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Point of order about 5e, magic, and "The Weave"

It has been definitively stated that there is "background magic" that infuses everything that allows for creatures like Dragons and Giants.

The Weave is simply an interface that allows mortals to channel and utilize that background magic.

You are 100% correct. There is still a way to turn off the "background magic" via anti-magic which still allows Ki powers to work in the field so my larger point stands, although should be amended to change "The Weave" to "Background magic accessed by the weave".