Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Chaosmancer]

You make a good point. Magic is also, from a view point, sci-fi. Science =/= technology. Science is: "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. "

Wizards very much engage in the: "...the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour..." of magic.

Exactly, science is being able to measure and systematically study something. It is the very act of understanding something.

Magic is often perceived as "that which we can't understand" but that isn't always the case in fiction.

 

[Maxperson]

You make a good point. Magic is also, from a view point, sci-fi. Science =/= technology. Science is: "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. "

Wizards very much engage in the: "...the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour..." of magic.

Kinda. They study it yes, but it's not exactly the same for every wizard. Magic is an art, not a science. One wizard might figure out that if you take bat guano and sulfer, shout bugaloo while twitch on finger and one thumb, a fireball happens. The next wizard might figure out that if you take bat guano and sulfer, sing we all live in a yellow submarine and flap your arms, a fireball happens. A sorcerer might intuitively figure out that if you use bat guano and sulfer, seriously intone burn burn burn, and make one fist, a fireball happens.

If you want to add fireball to your spellbook, you have to decipher and learn it. If you want to add it again from a different book you just found, you have to decipher it again. It's not automatic just because you succeeded once.

There are tricks, secrets and techniques to it, but you can put it together in a bunch of different ways.

 

[dave2008]

Kinda. They study it yes, but it's not exactly the same for every wizard. Magic is an art, not a science. One wizard might figure out that if you take bat guano and sulfer, shout bugaloo while twitch on finger and one thumb, a fireball happens. The next wizard might figure out that if you take bat guano and sulfer, sing we all live in a yellow submarine and flap your arms, a fireball happens. A sorcerer might intuitively figure out that if you use bat guano and sulfer, seriously intone burn burn burn, and make one fist, a fireball happens.

If you want to add fireball to your spellbook, you have to decipher and learn it. If you want to add it again from a different book you just found, you have to decipher it again. It's not automatic just because you succeeded once.

There are tricks, secrets and techniques to it, but you can put it together in a bunch of different ways.

Perhaps in your fiction, but not mine. I've always pictured magic as a formula of materials, actions, and words to produced a predetermined effect, AKA a spell. Now it is quite possible that traditions have added layers of superfluous things that don't really contribute to the magic, but the science is there and it produces the same results every time (when everything is done correctly).

EDIT: To clarify, the underlying actions, materials, and words are the same for every mage wanting to cast the same spell. Each school may add something, but there is a set minimum requirement that cannot be changed or the spell will not work.

 

[Kinematics]

Perhaps in your fiction, but not mine. I've always pictured magic as a formula of materials, actions, and words to produced a predetermined effect, AKA a spell. Now it is quite possible that traditions have added layers of superfluous things that don't really contribute to the magic, but the science is there and it produces the same results every time (when everything is done correctly).

EDIT: To clarify, the underlying actions, materials, and words are the same for every mage wanting to cast the same spell. Each school may add something, but there is a set minimum requirement that cannot be changed or the spell will not work.

From Terry Pratchett's Discworld:

The Rite of AshkEnte, quite simply, summons and binds Death. Students of the occult will be aware that it can be performed with a simple incantation, three small bits of wood and 4cc of mouse blood, but no wizard worth his pointy hat would dream of doing anything so unimpressive; they knew in their hearts that if a spell didn’t involve big yellow candles, lots of rare incense, circles drawn on the floor with eight different colors of chalk, and a few cauldrons around the place then it simply wasn’t worth contemplating.

 

[Maxperson]

Perhaps in your fiction, but not mine. I've always pictured magic as a formula of materials, actions, and words to produced a predetermined effect, AKA a spell. Now it is quite possible that traditions have added layers of superfluous things that don't really contribute to the magic, but the science is there and it produces the same results every time (when everything is done correctly).

Then how do you explain why a wizard who has learned fireball still has to decipher a new version of it if he finds another spellbook?

EDIT: To clarify, the underlying actions, materials, and words are the same for every mage wanting to cast the same spell. Each school may add something, but there is a set minimum requirement that cannot be changed or the spell will not work.

So are you saying that there is a core that remains constant, but other schools add mumbo jumbo fluff that doesn't matter?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Then how do you explain why a wizard who has learned fireball still has to decipher a new version of it if he finds another spellbook?

So are you saying that there is a core that remains constant, but other schools add mumbo jumbo fluff that doesn't matter?

Ever tried measuring a field using cubits?

Do you intuitively know the difference between a furlong, roman mile, nautical mile, and Standard US Mile?

If someone says it is six days travel to the nearest town, do they mean by foot, by donkey, by horse, by car, or by train?


There is a reason science started using standard measurements, we didn't used to, and it makes things difficult.

 

[Kinematics]

So are you saying that there is a core that remains constant, but other schools add mumbo jumbo fluff that doesn't matter?

My own interpretation of the workings of magic is that, while science will tell you the exact steps you need to get a particular result, and any person who follows those steps will always get exactly the same result, magic gives you things that are conceptually related to the idea of the effect you want to create — perhaps on top of hard mechanics that tap into some universal power source, but those mechanics are never sufficient in and of themselves.

The bat guano of a fireball only works because of a conceptual association. You could transfer that association to, say, gunpowder, and it will still work if that association is still maintained (but won't work if the conceptual part is broken). Likewise, someone attempting to cast fireball with bat guano, but doesn't have a grasp of the association thereof, will not be able to cast the spell.

Essentially, that's the difference I see between science and magic. With science, what you believe doesn't matter; the universe will continue to behave the way it always has. A gun will always be a gun, no matter who shoots it. With magic, what you believe does matter, which is why it's difficult to transfer knowledge from one person to another, and why you have to study another wizard's magic book to figure out his spells. You have to not only understand the mechanics, but also the underlying conceptions and metaphysical associations, and then translate those to your own versions of each.

Edit: An alternate, simpler description: Science is objective reality; Magic is subjective reality.

 

[Maxperson]

My own interpretation of the workings of magic is that, while science will tell you the exact steps you need to get a particular result, and any person who follows those steps will always get exactly the same result, magic gives you things that are conceptually related to the idea of the effect you want to create. Perhaps on top of hard mechanics that tap into some universal power source, but those mechanics are never sufficient in and of themselves.

The bat guano of a fireball only works because of a conceptual association. You could transfer that association to, say, gunpowder, and it will still work if that association is still maintained (but won't work if the conceptual part is broken). Likewise, someone attempting to cast fireball with bat guano, but doesn't have a grasp of the association thereof, will not be able to cast the spell.

Essentially, that's the difference I see between science and magic. With science, what you believe doesn't matter; the universe will continue to behave the way it always has. A gun will always be a gun, no matter who shoots it. With magic, what you believe does matter, which is why it's difficult to transfer knowledge from one person to another, and why you have to study another wizard's magic book to figure out his spells. You have to not only understand the mechanics, but also the underlying conceptions and metaphysical associations, and then translate those to your own versions of each.

I agree. Magic is more of an art than a science. There will be tricks, secrets and techniques that will aid you when learned, but it's not a science.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Ultimately though, isn't Sci-Fi just another form of fantasy?

No it isn’t, which is why I don’t play Starfinder.

 

[Guest 6801328]

No it is not. That was my point. The idea of PSI is complete fantasy. We may give it a fun techno coating in our fiction, but it is fantasy. To equate it with science in these times is problematic. Listen, there is an assault on science in the USA, and though I don't think you are participating in that discussion, I felt the need to be very clear that PSI abilities are fantastic, they are not based in any science. The are sci-fantasy most definitely.

I use the words differently. Psionics are fantastical, sure. And in that sense it is fantasy, sure.

But for me the genre of Fantasy means knights and wizards and dragons and gold. And for that, psionics are as poor a fit as are gnomish mechanical contraptions.