D&D (2024) 2024 Artificer

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The other half casters.

Or even full casters like the valor bard/bladesinger. War cleric can get an extra attack Wisdom modifier per short rest on top of using their channel for free spiritual weapon that doesnt take concentration. IMO 5E was too generous with extra attack for casters.

 

[Zardnaar]

Or even full casters like the valor bard/bladesinger. War cleric can get an extra attack Wisdom modifier per short rest on top of using their channel for free spiritual weapon that doesnt take concentration. IMO 5E was too generous with extra attack for casters.

Basic article problem. Low danage expert outside if subclasses and thise subclasses are beaten by basic builds in classes good at what they do. Basic cleric build let alone one built around it or something like arcane or nature cleric melee builds.

 

[Ashrym]

The difference is in spell efficacy at the level you are.

Yes.

But that's still comparing spell slots to spell slots and ignoring Infusions to no Infusions.

By the time the artificer can revivify, the cleric can raise dead.

Why is anyone dying at all? I can't remember the last time I cast Raise Dead with a character and stopped wasting a slot learning it on Bards.

Periapt of Wound Closure is available at 10th level in the Infusions and automatically stabilized the bearer. That eliminates the need to cast Raise Dead.

They have fewer slots and are limited to weaker effects than a full caster.

Yes.

And full casters still have 0 Infusions not given to them by an Artificer.

Their damage is underwhelming as well.

Because they aren't meant to be damage dealers. Seems WAI.

They're classified as support because they're the least bad at it, not because they're good at support.

Subjective opinion. They combine tool usage with magic item support with spells.

Every time I give examples the response seems to be a repetition of "but higher level spells" that ignores the tools and magic items in Infusions.

Tool expertise in no way competes with Bardic Inspiration (which stacks with guidance) and the rider effects bards can give on those.

Guidance isn't a Bard spell and Bardic Inspiration is a limited resource.

I might be one of the last people anyone should tell how to play a Bard, lol. It's my favorite and most common choice. ;-)

You're combining abilities from two classes to try and prove the benefits over a single class. If we're going to do that then sure, a Bard granting Bardic Inspiration and an Artificer granting Guidance is better than just an Artificer granting Guidance. ;-)

The battlesmith is almost there. I'd give them something like arcane recovery several times per day , which would probably bring them up to par.

I would not. The only thing that will do is bother Wizard fans about iconic class features and it's not thematic for a subclass fighting with a pet.

Any changes to the class should start within the Infusions and any changes to the subclass should start with the pet.

 

[Ashrym]

The other half casters.

The other half-caster whom I argued were more martial while Artificers are more magical?

Seems WAI to me. That gets back to wondering why we would presume that Artificers should do more damage at all.

If your argument is that you don't think they provide enough support then as a support class the solution would be around providing more support, not more damage.

As a class whose featured characteristic is in Infusions then that would be where an Infusion pass comes into play.

 

[Ashrym]

Exactly like. Even the Paladin, another 1/2 caster, heals and support better without even touching their slots, which they can use to further boost their support or deal superior damage.

And the Paladin still doesn't give out Infusions for those benefits or uses Thieves' Tools with advantage for opening locks or disabling traps. Those functions support the group too.

 

[Zardnaar]

And the Paladin still doesn't give out Infusions for those benefits or uses Thieves' Tools with advantage for opening locks or disabling traps. Those functions support the group too.

Main point is the paladin could be a barbarian, ranger, fighter and the Artificer could be a cleric, bard or rogue and you have a better party.

Rogue has similar issue tbh but the worst classes in 2014 were generally Monk, Artificer, Rogue. Their best archetypes were decent.

Infusions were a big * due to DM variance in magic item allocation. They became very good later in artificers career (to late?).

Our power gamers tried and couldnt do anything particularly well with them. They weren't terrible except the alchemist which was one of the worst archetypes made.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

My main gripe with the class is that too many of their abilities are lame ribbons that boil down to "you can use your class abilities". Monk had a similar problem in 5E where their 1st level class ability was "you have a stick and some armor, even if you wouldn't"

The Right Tool for the Job lets them spend an hour to make a tool if they have a tool. For those once a decade moments when you really need cobblers tools but only have smith tools.

Magic Item Adept is their 10th level feature, which should be pretty sexy, and lets attune a whopping one more item (so they can attune all their infusions only if the DM is a complete miser and has awarded no items). The magic item creation is a bit nebulous but at least 5.5 lets them make scrolls. I'd let them do 4 a day, but this is up to DM interpretation.

Magic Item Savant, the 14th level ability lets them use 5 attuned items, and ignore requirements. The thief got this restriction removed a level ago. You go savant of magic items!

Magic Item Master, their 18th level ability gives the awe inspiring 6 attunement. Just enough to use their class abilities, assuming the party hasnt found a better DM who awards stuff.

 

[Zardnaar]

My main gripe with the class is that too many of their abilities are lame ribbons that boil down to "you can use your class abilities". Monk had a similar problem in 5E where their 1st level class ability was "you have a stick and some armor, even if you wouldn't"

The Right Tool for the Job lets them spend an hour to make a tool if they have a tool. For those once a decade moments when you really need cobblers tools but only have smith tools.

Magic Item Adept is their 10th level feature, which should be pretty sexy, and lets attune a whopping one more item (so they can attune all their infusions only if the DM is a complete miser and has awarded no items). The magic item creation is a bit nebulous but at least 5.5 lets them make scrolls. I'd let them do 4 a day, but this is up to DM interpretation.

Magic Item Savant, the 14th level ability lets them use 5 attuned items, and ignore requirements. The thief got this restriction removed a level ago. You go savant of magic items!

Magic Item Master, their 18th level ability gives the awe inspiring 6 attunement. Just enough to use their class abilities, assuming the party hasnt found a better DM who awards stuff.

This. Level q0 is around where the Artificer switches on as such. Maybe 9 depending on subclass.

Even if DM hands out items in effect they're last in line. Look at me I have 4 magic items while someone else has 0......

 

[Ashrym]

Main point is the paladin could be a barbarian, ranger, fighter

Ranger maybe, but the healing just went down and the argument was Paladins were better support because of Lay on Hands.

I would argue that Infusions provide more support than some people think but if they're looking for big moment abilities the class is not designed for them.

The only reason I think the Ranger might be better than a Paladin is because they also have skill benefits and some control spells in their spell list to consider.

and the Artificer could be a cleric, bard or rogue and you have a better party.

Is the Cleric casting Find Traps to replace the Artificer? I think not. ;-)

That Rogue's healing ability is stellar...

The Bard has potential but that depends on how they're built. It's easy enough to pick up proficiency in Thieves' Tools and take Expertise in Sleight of Hand. Bards can already access the same or similar spells and more even before Magical Secrets.

What Bards don't have is Guidance (they give up Thieves' Tools in the Origin Feat choices for it) early like Artificers and I think Artificers have better attack cantrips.

What Bards also don't have is Infusions getting back to how the classes work and where I would start with a pass on Artificers.

The other thing Bards don't have is the ability to easily change spells prepared if needed.

Rogue has similar issue tbh but the worst classes in 2014 were generally Monk, Artificer, Rogue. Their best archetypes were decent.

I'm not comparing Artificers to 2014 versions of those classes. I started with ideas on what it takes to convert Artificers to 2024 and then people started talking about how they would go beyond what's needed.

The Artificer is a replacement for a Rogue in the party as a class that deals with locks and traps in that regard.

They gain all gain Expertise in Thieves' Tools.

After that they supplement the party magic whether it's from Spells or Infusions. They're good with INT skills instead of typical scouting skills though.

Infusions were a big * due to DM variance in magic item allocation. They became very good later in artificers career (to late?).

I listed several good Infusions that come early. It doesn't matter how many magic items the DM allows when Infusions are still more.

The biggest issue (IME) with Infusions is that they go on non-magical equipment. That can get in the way.

We house rule Infusions as add-ons rather than alternative equipment.

The second biggest issue is there could be a bigger selection.

Our power gamers tried and couldnt do anything particularly well with them. They weren't terrible except the alchemist which was one of the worst archetypes made.

Alchemist is even more niche on a niche class.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Couple more edits I would make

Give them heavy crossbow and hand crossbow proficiency. I honestly didnt even realize they were missing this.

Have them always regain max charges on their items. Tracking individual charges is irritating enough when using them. Just have them reset at long rest like everyone else's abilities.

Drop some of the infusions down to lower levels.

Arcane Propulsion Armor should be 2nd level tops. This is some real 1st level monk "you always have a stick" level of non-benefit other than the movement.

Gauntlets of Ogre Power should be 6th. Belt of Hill Giant Strength should be 10. Include items that buff stats beyond 20 as well. Strength is just straight up a worse stat than Dex in 5E. There's no one who wants strength that doesnt have an equal or better strength by the time these items come online.

Hat of Disguise should be 6th level tops. The warlock equivalent has no limit.

Quiver of Elohanna - dear lord, I'm about to OD on lame. Remove it to save people from this trap and add in a lower level custom quiver infusion that adds explosive bolts or something.

Horn of Blasting - man, move over quiver of Elohanna, there's a new suck champion. At 14th level you can spend an action to deal a pitiful amount of damage with a 20% chance of taking 10d6 yourself. Joy

Ring of the Ram - drop this sucker to 6th level tops.

Add in some combat wands, particularly spells that wouldnt be overpowered in large numbers at low levels. Burning Hands gauntlets with 4+proficiency mod charges at 2nd level is reasonable. Wand of Magic Missiles at 6th. Acid Arrow is another good candidate. Wand of Fireballs at 10th.

The other thing is so many of their infusions are just crappier versions of warlock invocations that pay a tax because they can be handed out. Never mind that the warlock is a better caster overall, having more spells at higher level. They also get more invocations, 10 vs the Artificers 8.

Ring of Jumping is a 10th level infusion. Jump at will is 1st level for warlocks.
Goggles of Night vs Devil's Sight which grants 120' darkvision to those without it and lets you see in magical darkness. Gift of the Depths which gives you water breathing, swim and lets you bring your friends along with a free casting of Water Breathing vs the Cap of Water Breathing which just affects one person. Cap is 2nd level vs Gift of the Depths 5th level, but lets be real - if there's an underwater adventure, the DM is almost always giving you a way to do it. Taking these infusions just means you pay for it with your precious few infusions/invocations rather than get it some other way.
Boots of Levitation are a 14th level infusion vs a 5th level Warlock invocation.

It just keeps adding up why people find the class underwhelming.