D&D (2024) 2024 Artificer

[Zardnaar]

Ranger maybe, but the healing just went down and the argument was Paladins were better support because of Lay on Hands.

I would argue that Infusions provide more support than some people think but if they're looking for big moment abilities the class is not designed for them.

The only reason I think the Ranger might be better than a Paladin is because they also have skill benefits and some control spells in their spell list to consider.



Is the Cleric casting Find Traps to replace the Artificer? I think not. ;-)

That Rogue's healing ability is stellar...

The Bard has potential but that depends on how they're built. It's easy enough to pick up proficiency in Thieves' Tools and take Expertise in Sleight of Hand. Bards can already access the same or similar spells and more even before Magical Secrets.

What Bards don't have is Guidance (they give up Thieves' Tools in the Origin Feat choices for it) early like Artificers and I think Artificers have better attack cantrips.

What Bards also don't have is Infusions getting back to how the classes work and where I would start with a pass on Artificers.

The other thing Bards don't have is the ability to easily change spells prepared if needed.



I'm not comparing Artificers to 2014 versions of those classes. I started with ideas on what it takes to convert Artificers to 2024 and then people started talking about how they would go beyond what's needed.

The Artificer is a replacement for a Rogue in the party as a class that deals with locks and traps in that regard.

They gain all gain Expertise in Thieves' Tools.

After that they supplement the party magic whether it's from Spells or Infusions. They're good with INT skills instead of typical scouting skills though.



I listed several good Infusions that come early. It doesn't matter how many magic items the DM allows when Infusions are still more.

The biggest issue (IME) with Infusions is that they go on non-magical equipment. That can get in the way.

We house rule Infusions as add-ons rather than alternative equipment.

The second biggest issue is there could be a bigger selection.



Alchemist is even more niche on a niche class.

I'm saying you're vastly over rating the Artificer abilities in a real world game. Alot of infusions can be duplicated by spells. Artificer healing is also weak/mediocre.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Do we even know if Expertise with a tool still exist in 2024? It seems any method of acquiring it was removed.

Outside of Thieves Tools, is there any mention of making a ability checks using a tool proficiency?

 

[Ashrym]

I'm saying you're vastly over rating the Artificer abilities in a real world game. Alot of infusions can be duplicated by spells. Artificer healing is also weak/mediocre.

I saying you're vastly over-rating just about every other class.

If we're talking about 1st level the Artificer has the same two spell slots as the Cleric, Druid, Bard, Ranger, or Paladin. Those same 2 slots use Cure Wounds for the same healing. That's assuming the Bard prepped Cure Wounds as the only class that cannot swap it in on a long rest, but there's no inherent disadvantage in healing at that point.

At 2nd level the Artificer has the same slots as the Ranger or Paladin still and that will continue. The other classes have one more slot that may or may not be spent on healing. What the Artificer gains instead is Infusions. One 1st level spell once is not worth 2 Infusions, IMO.

It's not until 3rd level when we start to see the spell gap start between half and full casters. Bards, Clerics, and Druids have 2nd level spells and six slots total compared to three slots total.

It's also unfortunate that Right Tool for the Job is so situational. It would be better to move Right Tool for the Job to 2nd level and add another Infusion at this level if we make changes.

Fortunately this is also where subclasses start. If we make a change let Artificers cast one of their bonus spells prepared once per long rest without using a spell slot.

Alchemists gain Experimental Elixirs. Not everyone's favorite but controllable with spell slots. If someone wants to improve that then give 1 free one per point of INT bonus and add two more elixirs to the list.

Armorer gets armor benefits, Artillerist gets Cannons, Battle Smith gets a pet. Mostly good at those levels, might need tweaks.

It's after those levels there's a bit of a lull in class development where Bards, Clerics and Druids are maintaining the spell advantages, but Artificers are grabbing their second subclass features already at 5th level to go with 2nd level spells.

A person might move the new Infusion to 5th level with both Tool Expertise and Flash of Genius, move the subclass abilities to 6th level, and move the Spell Storing Item to 7th level with some changes. Or move the Spell Storing Item to 5th with modifications and Tool Expertise plus Flash of Genius at 7th.

Regardless, currently the Artificer gains the second subclass jump at 5th level while 6th level improves some subclass abilities and gives Tool Expertise and Flash of Genius comes right after that.

At that point the Artificer has plenty for options as an expert type and has spells for healing and status effects and has Infusions.

If they need anything it's more Infusions. They don't have that big gap early.

 

[Ashrym]

Do we even know if Expertise with a tool still exist in 2024? It seems any method of acquiring it was removed.

It's not removed because Artificers stiff have it until WotC says otherwise. Backwards compatibility. ;-)

Outside of Thieves Tools, is there any mention of making a ability checks using a tool proficiency?

Yes. As mentioned the Skilled Feat grants it an many tool descriptions.

Here's a basic run down.

A tool helps you make specialized ability checks, craft certain items, or both.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Make the artificer a full caster, then drop the extra attack on battle master.

 

[Merlecory]

Make the artificer a full caster, then drop the extra attack on battle master.

Battlemaster, the fighter subclass?

 

[Clint_L]

From playing one, no. Infused weapons that you use your Int bonus to hit and damage and get extra attacks with end up being quite potent.

Sure, you can cast a spell in combat, but as a half caster, your combat options there are usually unimpressive. Actually just fighting works pretty well.

Yup - if my spouse wants their artificer to kill stuff, they just shoot it and attack with their construct. Their spells are all utility, like grease, fly, revivify, haste, mending, and so on.

 

[OptionalRule]

I've just never liked The Artificer outside of Eberron.

 

[Umbran]

I said pet option. The pet is part of what makes the option decent in combat.

It is nice - basically a bonus action spell attack for 1d8+PB every round. But it doesn't scale at all until 9th level. The Battlesmith themselves does more with weapon attacks.

The fact that they can use the caster stat for weapon attacks when Paladins and Rangers don't supports the more magical vs more martial argument. IMO.

I think the issue we are having is that we define "magical" and "martial" differently.

A wizard is magical - if they want to hurt you, they cast a spell on you.

A paladin is martial - if they want to hurt you, they hit you with a weapon, and use their magic to enhance that weapon strike.

The Battlesmith - if they want to hurt you, they hit you with a weapon, and use their magic to enhance the weapon strike.

So, call it what you will.

 

[Umbran]

I’d counter with “most magic-based classes have a weapon subclass” but then armored artificer pokes their helmet in.

You know, they can stand together just fine.