D&D (2024) 2024 Artificer

[MarkB]

Right now that's still how Artificers work, however. They have Tool Expertise. We can't examine who they they based on speculation over what WotC might change in the future.

Yeah, all I'm saying is that there may not be an easy way to apply that expertise if you're playing one using the 2024 rules.

 

[Xeviat]

There's no difference between a Cure Wounds or Faerie Fire or Lesser Restoration or Haste or Heat Metal cast by any of these classes. The difference is higher level slots for a few bigger moments versus more magic item support for general benefits most of the time.

Yes there is a difference; the Artificer has less slots than the Bard or Cleric until spell storing items come into effect. Which may be room to improve; make spell storing lower level and help serve the dual purpose of being their Arcane Recovery/Channel Divinity value ability, but also to give them more low level slots to make up for their lack of high level slots and slower progression.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Artificers aren't competing with Clerics in skills.

Bards don't have Expertise with tools either. They have an extra skill proficiency and Expertise in 2 skills plus Jack of all Trades.

The Artificer cantrip Guidance covers against the Bard abilities until later and matches the Cleric cantrip which Artificers surpass with Tool Expertise and Flash of Genius.

There's no difference between a Cure Wounds or Faerie Fire or Lesser Restoration or Haste or Heat Metal cast by any of these classes. The difference is higher level slots for a few bigger moments versus more magic item support for general benefits most of the time.

I agree that there's room for more Infusions. Disagree that the full caster label higher level spells available is better most of the time.

The difference is in spell efficacy at the level you are. By the time the artificer can revivify, the cleric can raise dead. They have fewer slots and are limited to weaker effects than a full caster. Their damage is underwhelming as well. They're classified as support because they're the least bad at it, not because they're good at support.

Tool expertise in no way competes with Bardic Inspiration (which stacks with guidance) and the rider effects bards can give on those.

The battlesmith is almost there. I'd give them something like arcane recovery several times per day , which would probably bring them up to par.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

The difference is in spell efficacy at the level you are. By the time the artificer can revivify, the cleric can raise dead. They have fewer slots and are limited to weaker effects than a full caster. Their damage is underwhelming as well. They're classified as support because they're the least bad at it, not because they're good at support.

The artificer is healing for Tool expertise in no way competes with Bardic Inspiration (which stacks with guidance) and the rider effects bards can give on those.

Exactly like. Even the Paladin, another 1/2 caster, heals and support better without even touching their slots, which they can use to further boost their support or deal superior damage.

 

[Ashrym]

Battles smith is still mediocre at combat, support and expert stuff. And reliant on the pet not dying. Same book with the latest artificer let you do a Wisdom based ranger.

Mediocre compared to what? Battle Smith is decent at combat. They have Extra Attack and extra damage via pet attack that has it's own turn.

The Steel Defender has 2 + INT bonus + 5 * Artificer level HP and is easy enough to grant Thp thru Heroism and heal thru Mending. It also has a self-repair ability. It's not fragile.

Guidance still helps Artificers over Bards and Rogues until Tool Expertise hits. The Steel Defender even has Expertise in Perception and immunity to Surprise.

The only real issue with the class is a lack of high impact abilities for high impact moments. If a player wants those and can see other classes with such abilities then the grass looks greener, but the consistent benefits of the class haven't lost value.

19 or 21 STR and 19 CON from Infusions helps anyone. Mind Sharpener or Spell-Refueling Ring are useful.

A pass on the spell list is worth considering. A pass on the Infusion list is a good idea, but there are some good Infusions in there.

 

[Zardnaar]

Mediocre compared to what? Battle Smith is decent at combat. They have Extra Attack and extra damage via pet attack that has it's own turn.

The Steel Defender has 2 + INT bonus + 5 * Artificer level HP and is easy enough to grant Thp thru Heroism and heal thru Mending. It also has a self-repair ability. It's not fragile.

Guidance still helps Artificers over Bards and Rogues until Tool Expertise hits. The Steel Defender even has Expertise in Perception and immunity to Surprise.

The only real issue with the class is a lack of high impact abilities for high impact moments. If a player wants those and can see other classes with such abilities then the grass looks greener, but the consistent benefits of the class haven't lost value.

19 or 21 STR and 19 CON from Infusions helps anyone. Mind Sharpener or Spell-Refueling Ring are useful.

A pass on the spell list is worth considering. A pass on the Infusion list is a good idea, but there are some good Infusions in there.

The other half casters.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yeah, all I'm saying is that there may not be an easy way to apply that expertise if you're playing one using the 2024 rules.

Id do expertise on anything they use a tool for. If they have the relevant skill as well, that's advantage with expertise. I do crits on skills as 10+ over the target, which grant additional degrees of success for skill challenges, harvesting of trap components, etc, so that would be good for my home game.

 

[Ashrym]

Yeah, all I'm saying is that there may not be an easy way to apply that expertise if you're playing one using the 2024 rules.

I don't see it. 2024 has more defined uses for using those tools and how hard is it to use a Disguise Kit to create a disguise in game play?

A Bard or Rogue can't gain Expertise in the Disguise Kit. Any Artificer who gains the proficiency gains the Expertise. The Skilled Feat grants skills or tools of choice, making it a good feat for Artificers to gain those tool proficiencies of choice.

Thieves' Tools is still the obvious benefit that always exists.

 

[Ashrym]

Yes there is a difference; the Artificer has less slots than the Bard or Cleric until spell storing items come into effect. Which may be room to improve; make spell storing lower level and help serve the dual purpose of being their Arcane Recovery/Channel Divinity value ability, but also to give them more low level slots to make up for their lack of high level slots and slower progression.

Not per spell cast. There's no difference. 2d8+5 HP on a Cure Wounds spell is the same. But not losing Faerie Fire to a concentration check with Mind Sharpener is up to 4 spells not lost to concentration checks that don't need to be recast.

We're already taking the additional slots and higher level spells into consideration with the limited number of impact moments these bring in contrast to the long-term consistent benefits of Infusions. And additional support spell is just another spelll from that extra pool that Artificers supplement their spells with Infusions instead.

A full caster still doesn't have Infusions.

 

[MarkB]

I don't see it. 2024 has more defined uses for using those tools and how hard is it to use a Disguise Kit to create a disguise in game play?

A Bard or Rogue can't gain Expertise in the Disguise Kit. Any Artificer who gains the proficiency gains the Expertise. The Skilled Feat grants skills or tools of choice, making it a good feat for Artificers to gain those tool proficiencies of choice.

Thieves' Tools is still the obvious benefit that always exists.

Yeah, sorry, ignore me - I think I'd formed the wrong impression during some of the previews and hadn't confirmed it by reading the actual book in more detail. I thought they'd gone fully over to using skill checks only, with tool proficiencies only providing advantage.