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Worlds of Design: Rolls vs. Points in Character Building

Let’s talk about methods of generating RPG characters, both stochastic and deterministic.

Let’s talk about methods of generating RPG characters, both stochastic and deterministic.

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.
"Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will." Jawaharlal Nehru

When creating character attributes, there are two broad approaches to generating them: stochastic and deterministic. The stochastic method involves chance, while the deterministic method does not. Most any other method is going to be one of the other, whatever the details. The pros of one method tend to be the cons of the other.

Stochastic
The classic method is rolling dice, usually D6, sometimes an alternative like percentage dice. There are various ways do this. For example, some of the old methods were to sum the roll of 3d6 six times in a specific order of six character abilities. A variation was 3d6 and change the order as desired, another was roll 4d6, don’t count the lowest die, and then you might be able to change order or not; and so forth.

What are the pros of rolling the dice? First of all and primarily, variety (barring cheating). You get a big range of dice rolls. Dice rolling promotes realism, you get a big variation in numbers so you get some 3s, in fact you get as many 3s as 18s, and with some methods you have the opportunity to play characters with “cripplingly bad" ability numbers. Further, it's always exciting to roll dice, whether you like it or not. (Keep in mind, when I first saw D&D I said “I hate dice games.”)

One of the cons of rolling dice is that it's unfair in the long run, a player can get big advantages lasting for years of real-time throughout the campaign just by getting lucky in the first dice rolls. This can be frustrating to those who didn't get lucky. Perhaps even more, rolling dice encourages cheating. I've seen people roll one character after another until they get one they like - meaning lots of high numbers - and then they take that to a game to use. That’s not possible with point buy. Another con is that you may want to play a particular character class yet the dice just won’t cooperate (when you’re rolling in specific order).

Deterministic
The other method which I believe has been devised independently by several people including myself (I had an article for my system published a long time ago) is the one used in fifth edition D&D. A player is given a number of generic points to buy ability numbers. The lowest numbers can be very cheap, for example, if you are using a 3 to 18 scale, when you buy a 3 it may cost you one point, while an 18 may cost 20-some points. You decide what you want, for which ability, and allocate until you run out of points.

Point buy is very fair (FRP is a game, for some people). No one need be envious of someone who either 1) rolled high or 2) rolled many characters and picked the best one. It prevents the typical new character with sky-high abilities, it prevents cheating, so the player has to supply the skill, not rely on bonuses from big ability numbers. Of course, the GM can choose the number of points available to the players so he/she can give generally higher or lower numbers on average as they choose.

But point buy lacks variety for a particular class. The numbers tend to be the same. It's not exciting, it’s cerebral, and as such it takes a little longer than rolling dice. That's all the cons I can think of. Keep in mind I'm biased in favor of point buy. It's clean, fair and simple.

I haven’t spent much time trying to figure out yet another method of generating a character. The only other method I can think of that isn’t one or the other is to have some kind of skilled contest determine the numbers, such as pitching pennies or bowling. Then the question becomes why use one kind of skill over another?

Do you favor one method over the other? And has anyone devised a method that is not stochastic or deterministic?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Lifepath character creation can be a lot of fun. It usually does a great job suggesting story elements to build around, and I enjoy how that, in many of those systems, you end up with a character that is very much a product of their experiences.
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
Let’s talk about methods of generating RPG characters, both stochastic and deterministic.



When creating character attributes, there are two broad approaches to generating them: stochastic and deterministic. The stochastic method involves chance, while the deterministic method does not. Most any other method is going to be one of the other, whatever the details. The pros of one method tend to be the cons of the other.

Stochastic
The classic method is rolling dice, usually D6, sometimes an alternative like percentage dice. There are various ways do this. For example, some of the old methods were to sum the roll of 3d6 six times in a specific order of six character abilities. A variation was 3d6 and change the order as desired, another was roll 4d6, don’t count the lowest die, and then you might be able to change order or not; and so forth.

What are the pros of rolling the dice? First of all and primarily, variety (barring cheating). You get a big range of dice rolls. Dice rolling promotes realism, you get a big variation in numbers so you get some 3s, in fact you get as many 3s as 18s, and with some methods you have the opportunity to play characters with “cripplingly bad" ability numbers. Further, it's always exciting to roll dice, whether you like it or not. (Keep in mind, when I first saw D&D I said “I hate dice games.”)

One of the cons of rolling dice is that it's unfair in the long run, a player can get big advantages lasting for years of real-time throughout the campaign just by getting lucky in the first dice rolls. This can be frustrating to those who didn't get lucky. Perhaps even more, rolling dice encourages cheating. I've seen people roll one character after another until they get one they like - meaning lots of high numbers - and then they take that to a game to use. That’s not possible with point buy. Another con is that you may want to play a particular character class yet the dice just won’t cooperate (when you’re rolling in specific order).

Deterministic
The other method which I believe has been devised independently by several people including myself (I had an article for my system published a long time ago) is the one used in fifth edition D&D. A player is given a number of generic points to buy ability numbers. The lowest numbers can be very cheap, for example, if you are using a 3 to 18 scale, when you buy a 3 it may cost you one point, while an 18 may cost 20-some points. You decide what you want, for which ability, and allocate until you run out of points.

Point buy is very fair (FRP is a game, for some people). No one need be envious of someone who either 1) rolled high or 2) rolled many characters and picked the best one. It prevents the typical new character with sky-high abilities, it prevents cheating, so the player has to supply the skill, not rely on bonuses from big ability numbers. Of course, the GM can choose the number of points available to the players so he/she can give generally higher or lower numbers on average as they choose.

But point buy lacks variety for a particular class. The numbers tend to be the same. It's not exciting, it’s cerebral, and as such it takes a little longer than rolling dice. That's all the cons I can think of. Keep in mind I'm biased in favor of point buy. It's clean, fair and simple.

I haven’t spent much time trying to figure out yet another method of generating a character. The only other method I can think of that isn’t one or the other is to have some kind of skilled contest determine the numbers, such as pitching pennies or bowling. Then the question becomes why use one kind of skill over another?

Do you favor one method over the other? And has anyone devised a method that is not stochastic or deterministic?
Stochastic using cards with no replacement solves many of the issues you perceive with random. The sum will always be the same, so the maximum cheating would just be to arrange the draws which comes close to reverting to points buy. If you draw a high score, you will also draw a low one, so characters are more balanced and there is little overshadowing or unfairness in the long run as you put it.

The array of cards is up to the group. I am liking five 2s, five 5s, four 3s and four 4s for my campaign, which is consciously set on hard mode. One could easily shift that range upward to match points buy. For that matter, one can always roll for a random array from the 65 possible arrays.
 

I love organic characters such as D&D rolled in order - ones where you don't have the most efficient ordering.

However, in D&D 5e, I love the Faustian bargain of ASI vs. feat. Specifically where (a) it's a meaningful choice (not too low or two high of ability scores) and (b) everyone in the party has the same choice (not some with high ability scores and some with low). So I definitely like point buy for that.

This is ultimately my main concern with rolling for stats: feats. Characters who roll well will become unstoppable demigods with multiple feats while those who roll poorly are so busy trying to increase their stats just to become a functional character they end up feat starved and it only makes them feel worse.

I give my players a choice at the beginning of the campaign: they vote as a party to have rolling for stats OR point buy with feats. NOT both. I find the game ends up similarly balanced either way in the end.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I prefer the method that is fair in game terms, not in life terms - life is clearly not fair.
And as the game setting is in part trying to replicate something halfway real (one hopes!), then where are you?

If the excitement of rolling characters is a significant part of your campaign, there's something wrong with your campaign.

Your character is the accumulation of what he/she/it does, and chooses not to do, not of the ability numbers.
Strange how I can agree so fully with the second statement yet take some umbrage at the first.

They're not related. One can have a fine campaign where players love rolling stats and yet still see their characters as the sum of what they do.

Why's that, you ask? Well, whe the character's being rolled up it hasn't done anything yet. Its stats are all it has, so might as well have fun creating them. :)
 

Hiya!



I prefer rolling so much that I more or less insist on it for virtually any RPG I GM/DM...or play.

With the Random method I've never had a DM say "THOSE are your scores? Too high! You cheated!" ...and I've never had a DM say "THOSE are your scores? Too low! Roll again!".

With Point Buy, I have had a DM's say "THOSE are your scores? Too high AND too low! Balance them better!" ...and I've had a DM say "THOSE are your scores? Too low! Spend ALL your points!".

The point I'm getting at is that...at least in my experience... the "Array/Point Buy" method tends to discourage unusual or unique characters. It also tends to annoy the DM when I get the "official 5e array stats of [15,14,13,12,10,8 ]....and show him my character that has [16, 10, 11, 9, 8, 7]...and the other Players. Suddenly I'm accused of "trying to screw with the game" because I want to play a 'below PC average' character.

As for "cheating" players with the Random method; my solution to this if/when it ever comes out is the same solution I made 30+ years ago when I was still a "DM newb with only 8 or so years under my belt". All I said to fix the cheating player was.... "OK, everyone make some 1st level PC's. Just pick your stats. Whatever you feel is a reasonable character or fits your concept, just don't get too crazy". BOOM! Every single PC brought to the table was reasonable. No "multiple 18's", no "multiple 3's". No "mostly in the teens". Just decent, interesting PC's with stats that fit the character concept. Why? Nobody wanted to be accused of being a Munchkin/Monty-Haul type of person with a self-esteem problem who needed validation via a set of high stats. Who wuddathunkit? ;) So I saw stats like "17, 14, 10, 11, 8, 8", or "16, 16, 10, 9, 9, 8", or MAYBE a "18, 15, 11, 9, 8, 6", or even a "13, 11, 11, 11, 10, 12"...but nothing like "17,15,13,12,16,18".

If you want to see what kind of players you have...tell them to each "make a character over the week for the weekend game....and every one just pick your stats". That'll show you what kind of player someone is. Well, at least that's been my experience.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I agree, point buy tends to create the same character, but that's only when you're dealing with a group that has the same experience. When you have a group where there are new players to TTRPG's and others that are min/maxers, you get a difference the size of the Grand Canyon. Even more so later on in levels, as the maxers inevitably plotted out each level. So each successive level, they may gain an extra 2% or 5% or 10%.

But the truth is, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't break the game. And if you have mature players, it doesn't do anything except have the novice ask the maxer how they did it; thus, teaching them the ins and outs of character creation.

As far as your experience with a DM is considered, I'm sorry. Sometimes DM's try (or want) to control things they don't need to. And stats, if the rules are followed, is something they definitely don't need to try and control. Again, it doesn't break the game.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Why would one hope that? The setting is where the campaign takes place. It's cardboard and sawdust as soon as you peek behind the frames.
Only if a) you peek behind the frames and b) there isn't in fact more setting there.

Just like everything else, the setting is in service to the campaign and the game, not the other way around.
The setting is - or certainly can be - independent of the campaign, notwithstanding any changes made to it as a direct result of said campaign.

It has to be, in fact, if there's any intention of reusing it or - in the extreme - trying to publish it.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
At my table....the setting, the campaign, and any individual session is co-mingled and inseparable.

I run a sandbox style game, so for me...

The setting is what happens in that sandbox absent of the Player Characters input. Cultures rise and fall, map borders change, people move in and out of history. This is a forward moving point in time so actions by the PCs have shaped the setting, however there is always an "absent of PC input" future in my mind as time progresses.

The campaign is simply a series of interconnected adventures the PCs have chosen to pursue for whatever reasons they decide to pursue them. Factions in the world may request the PCs help directly, or maybe it just so happens the PCs randomly bump into a situation that concerns a factions interests. Or maybe the PCs engage in some story that has no relation to anything else. Its really player driven based on story threads i've dropped in front of them. I have no overarching story more than that which is happening in the setting itself as various powers compete for their own goals.

I rarely "design" adventures ahead of time. I use my setting to determine the way the world reacts to what the PCs decide to do in any given session. I then update the setting based on the actions the PCs performed to establish a new "present" and use that new present to adjudicate future actions. The history of those actions becomes "the campaign".

I have TONS of the world left that is barely or not at all defined. What is happening or has happened in those areas isn't yet defined, but I think the border to those areas would be better described as "the fog of war" rather than as "seeing the back of the set" because it becomes fleshed out as soon as it becomes interacted with (like a famous cat).
 

Vaslov

Explorer
I've played in 5e and DCC campaigns using either method. Still playing a 5e character with technically slightly below below average stats rolled when 5e first came out. I fail more than others at the table. Fine for me, but I can see how some might get frustrated.

I do like how SotDL addressed this issue in their game design. Character creation is effectively point buy, with a lot less variation at starting level. The real investment in stats happens as the characters level up, greatly influenced by the the 3 classes they pick up over their career. I believe in a rules expansion somewhere there is a rule for rolling stats for starting characters for those who like that dynamic.
 

aramis erak

Legend
In 1977 Gygax wrote:

Quote: AD&D : As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy — which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can’t or won’t identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used. Four alternatives are offered for player characters:

Method I: All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 4d6 are rolled, and the lowest die (or one of the lower) is discarded.

Method II: All scores are recorded and arranged as in Method I. 3d6 are rolled 12 times and the highest 6 scores are retained.

Method III: Scores rolled are according to each ability category, in order, STRENGTH, INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, DEXTERITY, CONSTITUTION, CHARISMA. 3d6 are rolled 6 times for each ability, and the highest score in each category is retained for that category.

Method IV: 3d6 are rolled sufficient times to generate the 6 ability scores, in order, for 12 characters. The player then selects the single set of scores which he or she finds most desirable and these scores are noted on the character record sheet.»


So, as stated by Gygax, D&D is not a game in which you have to play the character you don't want to play and characters that are barely viable because of quirks of the dice.

Again, if you are going to go through all kinds of dice shenanigans the push towards to upper end of the median, to create viable and interesting characters for the player to engage with, just use Point Buy and be done quickly and fairly.
It's worth noting that the DMG was nearly a year after the PHB... long enough for players to have realized that AD&D stats had far more importance than Original D&D or even Holmes Basic.

THe OE core had no attribute requirements for classes. Only penalties for substandard ones.

that Many GM's still used flat 3d6 says Gygax was a powergaming (expletive adjective) who was as detrimental as he was beneficial to the game. The AD&D 2E explosion - both in depth and breadth of sales - really shows just how much getting rid of Gary was a GOOD THING.

And it uses 3d6 as standard. Playing paladins isn't supposed to be the core play. It also quite properly moves the 1e DMG alternatives into the PHB, and makes them the Alternate versions, with the original 3d6 roll as the primary, and bog-standard, mode.

Point buy is plagued with other problems -
repeat characters (just tack on a roman numeral and return to 1st level abilities) being the largest.
Player indecision, especially for novices, can be a huge problem.
 

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