D&Detox

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm running a non-D&D online game with a couple of seats open for drop-in players (Roll20), and I'm finding that some players can't quite wrap their heads around a non-D&D rule set. It's more of an issue when play wanders away from role-play and into rules-dense territory, like combat.

If you've GMed other bloodlines of games, like Fate or Dungeon World (or Amber?), how did you help players break out of the D&D mindset?

If you've learned a non-d20-style game as a PC while coming from a D&D background, did you have trouble avoiding old habits? What did you do to overcome them?

I‘m not sure I grasp what’s happening.

I started with AD&D in ‘77, found Traveller and The Fantasy Trip a couple years later, then Champions when it came out. Those games were the only RPGs I played in any real amount until the 1990s, when my collection and gaming exp exploded to over 100 systems. D&D still comprised the majority of play.

...but the only real change in my play style over time was moving away from cookie cutter stereotype PCs I played like war game units and into genuinely playing character roles.

So I’m confused by what you mean by your complaint about the D&D mindset. What are they doing that’s “D&D” as opposed to whatever you’re playing?

 

[The Monster]

So I’m confused by what you mean by your complaint about the D&D mindset. What are they doing that’s “D&D” as opposed to whatever you’re playing?

This is the key question. Are they just playing for the most pluses, without paying attention to description or narration? Are they just using basic mechanics because they don't see the opportunities for options other than simple hit points? Are they just going for the 'smackdown win' rather than exploring other solutions?

I'm put in mind of two examples from my group (most of us have been RPGing since the 1970's). The first time I started running Fantasy Hero (wide-open point-build system), it took multiple sessions before the players really grasped that casters could wear armor - and not because they multiclassed or NPC-cheated! I found it quite amusing, although a couple of them were a bit annoyed that the plate-armor bad guys kept whipping off spells without needing to use scrolls, rings, etc. Once they learned they could do it too, they eagerly embraced the potentials.
The other was early in our foray into Fate. One of us was GMing an east-asian-mythos based campaign (Tianxia), and staged a full-blown, individual-contest martial arts tournament. The solo fights, rather than tedious one-man die-rolling, turned out to be an excellent way for us to learn to really work the system, using skills other than Fight to put aspects and wear down the opponent. Everyone got into the act of suggesting possibilities and interpretations of each PC's unique profile.

I guess my point is that there's a learning curve, even for bright, experienced gamers, and shifting certain gears can be an issue for some people, in different ways and at different speeds. In our group, the GM is not only responsible for teaching rules, but for helping to ease the transition(arguably that's always part of teaching, but involves a lot more than simply transmitting data!); and really, any tight rules fiddling is done by the GM until/unless the player gets comfortable. Of course, one has to have cooperative players to accomplish this, which may need yet another category of communication...

More specific than that, I can't offer without knowing more about what's going on.

 

[Morrus]

I can't speak to all of them, but to some... and Morrus, you're awesome, but you seem to like crunchy games, and that may be getting in the way of understanding.

I like all sorts of games!

When I say "understand" in this case it isn't an intellectual limit, it's more used in the context of "feel the same way as”.

 

[atanakar]

I can't speak to all of them, but to some... and Morrus, you're awesome, but you seem to like crunchy games, and that may be getting in the way of understanding.

There are players out there for whom playing with the rules is not itself fun. The rules are a not-particularly-fun means to an end that is fun. For them, "work" is precisely what picking up a new set of rules is - an effort that isn't pleasant, that will hopefully eventually get them a payoff.

Asking them to pick up a new ruleset can be... like asking them to come to your house, where you will serve them a wonderful home-cooked meal. But first, they have to help you clean up the living room and dining room.

And, for a lot of games, what they are asked to learn... is a lot. Hours of reading. Trying to stuff a bunch of new stuff into their head that they don't really have context for, but they typically need to grasp without using it before they can even figure out what kind of character they want to play. Yeah, that's not a small effort for everyone. And it isn't fun for everyone.

Not small effort + not fun = work. Does that make it understandable?

That is why quick start rules with pre-gen characters and a short scenario exist. The GM can serve a fully cooked meal. All the player has to do is sit down and try it.

 

[John Dallman]

If you've GMed other bloodlines of games, like Fate or Dungeon World (or Amber?), how did you help players break out of the D&D mindset?

If you've learned a non-d20-style game as a PC while coming from a D&D background, did you have trouble avoiding old habits? What did you do to overcome them?

I looked at and sometimes played games of other lineages from early in my RPG career, so never had a problem with habits, although some games demand mindsets that I find difficult.

The only case where I've had a player who had difficulties was a chap who was very used to Shadowrun mechanics, who could not shake the idea that GURPS worked in just the same way. It doesn't of course, but he could not stop generalising Shadowrun mechanics. Nobody else in that group was having the problem, and we eventually got him to play what was on his character sheet, when he did fine.

 

[Umbran]

That is why quick start rules with pre-gen characters and a short scenario exist. The GM can serve a fully cooked meal. All the player has to do is sit down and try it.

That can make it a little easier, sure. But that doesn't make getting a whole new game in your head trivial.

Also, this reminds me to mention - we are likely talking about adults with families, jobs and such - time for hobbies is often at a premium. It isn't strange that they resist doing work in their hobby time.

 

[atanakar]

That can make it a little easier, sure. But that doesn't make getting a whole new game in your head trivial.

Also, this reminds me to mention - we are likely talking about adults with families, jobs and such - time for hobbies is often at a premium. It isn't strange that they resist doing work in their hobby time.

It's not about families, children and work. I believe it's a mind set. Some people just want to cruise along and are happy with what they play. While others see the opportunity to learn a new systems as an invigorating exercise. They derive intellectual pleasure from that. They don't view it a work.

 

[Morrus]

That can make it a little easier, sure. But that doesn't make getting a whole new game in your head trivial.

Also, this reminds me to mention - we are likely talking about adults with families, jobs and such - time for hobbies is often at a premium. It isn't strange that they resist doing work in their hobby time.

I don’t think it helps that there’s a narrative out there that it’s hard work. Sure, some games might be. But a lot of games are very simple, and people being told repeatedly that it’s hard work feeds the belief that it is. I think a better narrative is an encouraging one. We’d all enjoy a more diverse gaming scene (in terms of games), I’m sure.

 

[Fenris-77]

I don’t think it helps that there’s a narrative out there that it’s hard work. Sure, some games might be. But a lot of games are very simple, and people being told repeatedly that it’s hard work feeds the belief that it is. I think a better narrative is an encouraging one. We’d all enjoy a more diverse gaming scene (in terms of games), I’m sure.

Yeah, how about "learning a new game is a lot of fun"? Because it is. Sure, you have read, gasp, but it's not hard, and a lot of the learning can be done during play over the first handful of sessions. I'd be on board for a new narrative there.

 

[Umbran]

I don’t think it helps that there’s a narrative out there that it’s hard work.

It isn't a "narrative". It is an experience some people actually have. I would prefer to have the actual presentation of that fact, so that we can choose to design, present, and help people choose game such that this experience happens less often.

Not telling folks it can be hard sets them up to feel stupid when they do find it hard. That's not helpful.