D&Detox

[Morrus]

It isn't a "narrative". It is an experience some people actually have. I would prefer to have the actual presentation of that fact, so that we can choose to design, present, and help people choose game such that this experience happens less often.

Not telling folks it can be hard sets them up to feel stupid when they do find it hard. That's not helpful.

I strongly disagree with that. I think the current narrative (and I use the term deliberately) creates an environment where people assume it's too hard, and so don't try. And while sometimes it might be, most times it won't, and yet we still have an industry where most people won't try another game. I'd much prefer a more diverse pool of games to play, instead of just reading them and putting them on my shelf with a wistful sigh.

 

[prabe]

If these are long-time D&D players, they might be having as much trouble with the different mindset as with learning new rules (though using similar terms for very different things could also generate mind-static). It can be very difficult to get across to people not used to it, that the players are supposed to narrate things, shape the larger story, alter the world in a way not radically dissimilar to GM Fiat. I ... don't really have any suggestions for the OP, here (sadly); all I can really offer is that no game will work at all tables--and it's not an indictment of either the game or the table if one doesn't work at yours.

 

[GMMichael]

The only case where I've had a player who had difficulties was a chap who was very used to Shadowrun mechanics, who could not shake the idea that GURPS worked in just the same way. It doesn't of course, but he could not stop generalising Shadowrun mechanics. Nobody else in that group was having the problem, and we eventually got him to play what was on his character sheet, when he did fine.

This is a good example of the OP issue. Better to call it a Shadetox, though? And I see another solution here: use a character sheet as a visual aid. Just having the name of the game on the sheet might be a subliminal reminder to some players that they're playing something different than what they're used to.

So I’m confused by what you mean by your complaint about the D&D mindset. What are they doing that’s “D&D” as opposed to whatever you’re playing?

This is the key question. Are they just playing for the most pluses, without paying attention to description or narration? Are they just using basic mechanics because they don't see the opportunities for options other than simple hit points? Are they just going for the 'smackdown win' rather than exploring other solutions?

I guess my point is that there's a learning curve, even for bright, experienced gamers, and shifting certain gears can be an issue for some people, in different ways and at different speeds . . .

of course, one has to have cooperative players to accomplish this, which may need yet another category of communication...

See above for D&D mindset examples. In my game there are many D&Differences, and some are:

• Initiative doesn't determine when you act; it determines when your action has priority over others.
• Avoiding (not reducing) damage requires an action.
• The narrative isn't fixed to the rules. So a character can miss and still cause damage, or tumble away from an opponent without using an action.

I'd explain how the players are attempting to D&D this, @Dannyalcatraz, but it might be more instructive to see which of us already knows what the players are having trouble with. Then we might see who else is in need of a D&Detox?

Monster, you might raise an important tangent. I'm sure it's a cooperation issue in some cases, but in my case, it's not.

 

[S'mon]

I think the big issue is using a VTT is really different than IRL. With IRL, you can work with the players over the character sheet so they understand everything. With a VTT, you have to do it all via description, which is much harder.

Yes, with my Mini Six game (a pretty simple game) I've had much more trouble with it over Roll20 than when we were playing in person. Players experienced with D&D can struggle with eg how D6 System multiple actions work, and with spending Character Points to advance rather than level up.

 

[Stormonu]

That can make it a little easier, sure. But that doesn't make getting a whole new game in your head trivial.

Also, this reminds me to mention - we are likely talking about adults with families, jobs and such - time for hobbies is often at a premium. It isn't strange that they resist doing work in their hobby time.

Just as an example - earlier this year/late last year I got my hands on the Alien RPG. In play, the system is dirt-simple and intuitive. However, spending the 6 or so hours with the rulebook as the GM to learn the game was not fun for me. Some sort of "how to play" video would have helped a whole lot, though as the GM I feel I would have still had to read through the book to ensure I was doing things right.

For someone like my wife, who not just disdains reading but has a learning disability that makes reading tough, reading the rules would not have worked. Having the game demonstrated and explained what/how she could do things in the game was the only feasible way to go. I know a lot of people don't have her specific difficulty, but I've been around enough people to know that sitting down and reading something takes a lot of focus and is often frustrating to a lot of folks (including me, as I get older - I get headaches reading book text anymore). A lot of people are more visually minded, and I think that's why we see so many tutorial videos/podcasts/stream that do so much better at drawing folks in than quick-start rules by seeing the game in action.

 

[Morrus]

Just as an example - earlier this year/late last year I got my hands on the Alien RPG. In play, the system is dirt-simple and intuitive. However, spending the 6 or so hours with the rulebook as the GM to learn the game was not fun for me. Some sort of "how to play" video would have helped a whole lot, though as the GM I feel I would have still had to read through the book to ensure I was doing things right.

For someone like my wife, who not just disdains reading but has a learning disability that makes reading tough, reading the rules would not have worked. Having the game demonstrated and explained what/how she could do things in the game was the only feasible way to go. I know a lot of people don't have her specific difficulty, but I've been around enough people to know that sitting down and reading something takes a lot of focus and is often frustrating to a lot of folks (including me, as I get older - I get headaches reading book text anymore). A lot of people are more visually minded, and I think that's why we see so many tutorial videos/podcasts/stream that do so much better at drawing folks in than quick-start rules by seeing the game in action.

The typical scenario is more than somebody has the game and wants to run it, but can't find players. If the players joined the game, they'd find somebody who knows the game willing to show them how it works. If you have somebody there who already knows how the game works, it's usually a fairly painless process.

An entire group having to learn it for the first time together, I agree, is less fun. But I don't think that's the usual situation.

 

[aramis erak]

If you've GMed other bloodlines of games, like Fate or Dungeon World (or Amber?), how did you help players break out of the D&D mindset?

FTF, I generally put a card (3x5, 4x6, 5x8, or 8.5x11) with the key processes of the game on it, and, if it's small enough, the standard combat actions list and go on it; if not, on a separate card.

This a big help.
I also find it useful to prep a 1 page overview of the setting if the players have issues.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

An entire group having to learn it for the first time together, I agree, is less fun. But I don't think that's the usual situation.

I agree that it's not the statistically typical situation... but it does happen to be the most common situation when it has come to me learning a new game.

There's only 1 game out of the dozens I've learned over the years that I didn't learn by reading it on my own and then teaching it to a table-full of players while running it for the first time, and that one was basically pure luck as it was the only time I've ever joined - rather than built - a new group.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

See above for D&D mindset examples. In my game there are many D&Differences, and some are:

• Initiative doesn't determine when you act; it determines when your action has priority over others.
• Avoiding (not reducing) damage requires an action.
• The narrative isn't fixed to the rules. So a character can miss and still cause damage, or tumble away from an opponent without using an action.

That sounds like rules familiarity issues.

I thought maybe you were talking about solving encounters like stereotypical D&D parties- kill everything that might get you XP and loot the bodies, etc.

Can‘t say ive seen much of that. I mean, I know of players who might grouse that an RPG handles things differently than D&D, but none have been tripped up by those differences in any major way. The closest I’ve seen was continued dissatisfaction with the way M&M handled iterative attacks from one player using automatic firearms and a super speedster.

 

[hawkeyefan]

So to offer an example that comes to mind for me with my group....and this may not be exactly the kind of thing that the OP had in mind, but I think it fits....my D&D players struggled with the Engagement Roll and Flashbacks in Blades in the Dark.

These are guys who have been playing RPGs for decades. Experienced gamers, having played a good number of different games. But most were one form of D&D or another, or else games that function very similarly.

So in Blades, the idea is for the players to come up with an idea for a Score (a job they’ll go on....something to steal, someone to kill, etc.). All they’re supposed to determine is a general approach (such as stealth, assault, social, deception, etc.) and then one detail (point of entry, means of deception, etc.). The game literally only wants these two things. “We’re going to sneak in to steal the artifact, and we’ll do it through the underground tunnels.” That’s it. Then you roll the engagement roll, and the result determines the situation as the Score begins.

The actual details of “the plan” are then decided in play. Playeds are also allowed to use Flashbacks to help set up actions they already took that can help them in the present.

My players were very used to coming up with a detailed plan ahead of time. They’d discuss and debate ahead of time, and come up with contingencies and all that. Sometimes that’s fun. Sometimes a lot of time is wasted on things that may never come up.

Blades jumps right to the action and lets the players plan on the fly. It’s very different and can be a real challenge for some players to grasp and to get good at it.

The player who took to it most readily in my group was the one who had the least amount of gaming experience. Only a few years to the decades of the others.