Why was this a great time and the game cited in the lead post was regaled as such a bad time?
Because Blades in the Dark encourages players to lean into their characters' failures and D&D doesn't?
Why was this a great time and the game cited in the lead post was regaled as such a bad time?
Where I see PvP (or more correctly PCvPC) as an occasional natural outgrowth of playing independent-thinking characters whose views, goals, ethics and tolerances don't necessarily agree, be that disagreement sometimes or all the time. And yes, sometimes it gets nasty; even murderous.I really detest PvP and this sort of thing seems likely to lead to it.
This, I think, depends on one's personal and-or table's playstyle on the D&D side, particularly in pre-3e editions. There, one can lean into a character's failings and strengths in whatever ratio one desires in order to end up with a fun character and a memorable time.Because Blades in the Dark encourages players to lean into their characters' failures and D&D doesn't?
I would say it's because this arose naturally from the gameplay, rather than from player decisions to undermine each other. The players were all doing their best to succeed at the mission. It wasn't as though the Whisper intentionally sabotaged the Lurk because they thought the mission was dumb.Just finished a Blades session and it reminded me of this thread. Not because there was any symmetry in play, but because it reminded me of how boldness of action and PCs not being on the same page can lead to absolute memorable calamity but in the best of ways (unlike this play anecdote where apparently everyone was unhappy).
The PCs are at War with their primary rival Gang who is one Tier above the PCs' Crew. War carries several negative mechanical effects and implications on play. The way to get out of War status is to (a) eliminate the enemy Faction or (b) negotiate a "cease fire" and a new Status (Status of -3 means War).
In the course of the last Information Gathering/Free Play, the PC Lurk (Infiltrator/Thief archetype) found the location of the rival Gang's financier/bank where their Stash is kept. Fortunately, its a flat in a tenement building adjacent to the Ironworks (which is a facility where they have a contact so that gives them access to rappel down to the hideout's bay window as point of entrance). Unfortunately, this financier/banker also possesses the holdings of other low Tier Gangs...so the prospect of negative Status with several Gangs and a lot of Heat is high and security will invariably be high.
The hope for the mission was the following:
1) Reduce the Hold of the rival Gang so they "Tier-down" to the same Tier as the PC's Crew.
2) Gain a lot of Stash.
3) Not incur too much collateral damage (best of luck with that) because the odds were high for that here.
The other PC is a Whisper (basically a Warlock archetype who Attunes to the Ghost Field for all kinds of supernatural affects/spiritual summonings). The Lurk and the Whisper have all kinds of issues because of the fallout that has occured because of failed attunements (demonic possessions and bargains that are haunting them, poltergeist "hanger ons", and other similar things).
Well, things were going well early and they absolutely snowballed because of a sequence of poor Action Rolls that yielded some Minor and Major consequences (and one poor decision) by the Whisper which involved dealing with a giant Python that was constricting him in the dark (the vault was accessed via a "zoo" room with all sorts of caged animals and a free-roaming python). A member of the security team came in to feed rats to the python (after hearing the noise), the Lurk knocked him out (pommel to the back of the ear) as he entered the room with a 5 (success with complication) on a Prowl that was Pushed for an extra die. Complication is the candelabra he was holding comes crashing to the floor. The "being constricted" Whisper Attuned to the Ghost Field for another Success with a Complication so ghost hands manifested to catch the candelabra and guide it safely to the floor. However, supernatural complications + further complications (and a poor decision to roll Resistance - Prowess rather than spend 1 Armor to reduce Harm 1 from the Python) = the Whisper incurred 12 total stress. That is the threshold for Trauma (in this case Haunted) and knock him out of the scene.
Complete clustereff ensued and a narrow escape.
Literally nothing they wanted to accomplished happened and they gained all sorts of bad things (Heat, Stress, Haunted Trauma, a loss of a lantern, another supernatural complication, a complication of "a member of the security team 'made' me during the escape" for the Lurk, and a Clock incurred by the Lurk to pay back a boatman driver that gave them egress via a canal that occurred as a result of the Lurk player using a Flashback - and incurring 1 Stress from it).
Again, complete clustereff.
PCs thematically in positions that place them against each other in their portfolio (the Lurk HATES the supernatural baggage and fallout caused by the Whisper) and the Whisper player made a poor decision (chose Resistance roll to reduce Harm 1 rather than spending 1 Armor).
However, this may have been our most fun Blades game to date. It was at least the most hysterical and likely the most memorable with the highest of stakes for sure (this may start a downward spiral for this Crew such that their story will end badly).
Why was this a great time and the game cited in the lead post was regaled as such a bad time?
I don't expect the PCs to be a many-headed hydra. I don't expect NPCs to respond in that vein either.Because I expect the insulted character to remember that insult, and I probably used all of PC B's good mojo not getting roped into PC A's idiocy? Because I expect goals passed up or missed not to be available again via the same path? It's clear we have pretty wildly different expectations of play in most cases, in terms of the fiction and in terms of the rules of the game and in terms of player behavior around the table.
Maybe you misread?So your trickster's actions weren't able to derail the warthane's actions that had already happened.
Probably because 1 PC action didn't immediately take you from step 3 to step 10 where all the bad consequences occurred.
Because Blades in the Dark encourages players to lean into their characters' failures and D&D doesn't?
I would say it's because this arose naturally from the gameplay, rather than from player decisions to undermine each other. The players were all doing their best to succeed at the mission. It wasn't as though the Whisper intentionally sabotaged the Lurk because they thought the mission was dumb.
In D&D terms, it was akin to rolling a fumble and hitting an ally (well, a series of fumbles). Sure, the character might be a bit salty about it, but the player should recognize that the other player had no real control over the misfortune, hence no hard feelings in the real world. Everyone recognizes it was largely down to bad luck. Maybe the player made a less-than-ideal choice by shooting in the other character's direction, but that's a far cry from active sabotage.
Where I see PvP (or more correctly PCvPC) as an occasional natural outgrowth of playing independent-thinking characters whose views, goals, ethics and tolerances don't necessarily agree, be that disagreement sometimes or all the time. And yes, sometimes it gets nasty; even murderous.
Where I see PvP (or more correctly PCvPC) as an occasional natural outgrowth of playing independent-thinking characters whose views, goals, ethics and tolerances don't necessarily agree, be that disagreement sometimes or all the time. And yes, sometimes it gets nasty; even murderous.
Even more relevant is when one or more PCs might not be in the party by their own choice e.g. they've been ordered on to the mission by a higher authority, so there's resentment of that along with resentment of having to hang around with - and put up with - these other schlubs.
This, I think, depends on one's personal and-or table's playstyle on the D&D side, particularly in pre-3e editions. There, one can lean into a character's failings and strengths in whatever ratio one desires in order to end up with a fun character and a memorable time.
3e and forward really tend to emphasize the strengths in characters and try hard to paper over (or mitigate, or outright remove) any failings. This of course means failings won't be brought out as often, or as willingly, and IMO this is kind of sad.
Quite the opposite here. The memorable moments I have come from PC vs PC situations (when I did not GM). Sometimes a single pivotal confrontation that changed the course of events, some others an ongoing attrition of unconciliable attitudes with the occasional clash, or cross revenge.In my experience, PCvPC has inevitably degraded to PvP. Our experiences of this differ. I don't in principle have a huge problem with characters that have divergent goals, but in practice if the players/characters won't work together the campaign I find the going not worth the ride. Some players--some tables--clear are able to keep character conflict from turning into player conflict, but I've never seen it happen. Obviously, YMMV--and FWIW I don't doubt that your table might be one of those tables that make it work.
I was thinking particularly of 5E, but I'll agree that more-recent editions do less to encourage players to accept their characters' failures and foibles than older editions did. I'm inclined to think that moving away from roll-in-order was the key difference.
Personally, I've experienced more than my fill of life going badly, and I can empathize with people not wanting to deal with that in a game. Horses for courses, and all-a-that.
I've had great moments of character conflict. But the ones I remember fondly were the ones where both players were on board with it. It didn't descend into player conflict. Anytime it resulted in player conflict, it is something I recall as being entirely negative.Quite the opposite here. The memorable moments I have come from PC vs PC situations (when I did not GM). Sometimes a single pivotal confrontation that changed the course of events, some others an ongoing attrition of unconciliable attitudes with the occasional clash, or cross revenge.
I consider myself a kind of dramatist type, but I usually had to confront with impulsive, chaotic, or even too rigid fellow players, I disagreed with, in-game.
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