Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay

[FrogReaver]

I swear I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just really strange.

I don't feel like you are being difficult at all and definitely not intentionally so. I tend to be fairly blunt so please don't take that bluntness as offense.

 

[prabe]

What I'm trying to discover is whether your social encounter style actually allows for emerging social situations that resemble social situations in your favorite fictional works.

I dunno if it's helpful, but I found a scene from (early in) one of my campaigns, from my wife's notes. The Dilyarli is a medusa reskinned as a cold fey. Taman's family were killed by one. Mo is a bard; other named folks are characters in the party. Yes, I botched the effect, the players and I have discussed that and decided it worked in-story.

The cloud came up over the the riverbank toward the end of the house with the garden and the gates, all also on the bridge. We all moved toward that end of the house, so we saw the cloud come over the wall at the end of the bridge and into the garden.

When it entered the garden, it turned into a tall, elegantly dressed, very pale-skinned fey man wearing leather armor in black with blue trim. He was carrying a rapier and had a longbow on his back, but didn’t have it out.

We stepped outside the door of the mansion. Mo was about to greet the figure, but Taman spoke first: “Do you know me?” “No.” Then Taman decided to charge.

Taman’s decision to charge was slow in coming (John rolled at nat 1 for his initiative), so the party was able to talk to the dilyarli.

Orryk to the DIlyarli, Is there any way to end this night without bloodshed or death?
Dilyarli: Yes.
Orryk: What is the alternative?
Dilyarli: The package must be delivered.
Fiona said: The package has already been opened by the little girl.
Dilyarli: She’s speaking Sylvan?
Us (except Taman): Yes.
Dilyarli, after thinking for a moment: Then she is now the package.
Us: They didn’t know that. Can we have more time to get her in to the Administrator? She’s just a little girl.
Dilyarli: I can give you until tomorrow night.
Us (except Taman): Okay.

Mo tried to cast Hold Person on Taman, but Taman saved against it and charged the Dilyarli with sword out, ready to stab it. Except that thirty feet away from the Dilyarli he got turned to ice. Solid ice. An ice sculpture.

GM: He is wedding decor.

The Dilyarli turned back into a cloud and drifted away the way he’d come.

Hope that helps as far as how I handle social situations.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm sorry. That looks as though I'm accusing all-a-y'all of railroading, and that's not my intent.

No harm no foul!

I'm actually pretty serious, though, that the published fiction I like best is ... not what I want to play in a TRPG.

I mean, I don't particularly care if I play through a LOTR inspired campaign even though I like LOTR. So maybe we aren't so far apart there. I still think there's a missing element to what i'm getting at that I'm not conveying very well and i'm not sure how else to convey it.

The pleasures I get from reading fiction are, now that I think about it, starkly different from the pleasures I get from TRPGs. I mean, yes, it's helpful to have read a lot, but I get more inspiration for TRPGs from something like The Devil in the White City or Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded (and it's not as though I'd ever run PCs up against an analog of either H.H. Holmes or an EL-7+ eruption) than from any piece of fiction.

I definitely agree with the first line but even in agreeing with that I still feel there's an important gap in what I'm trying to say with how you are responding.

Maybe approaching it this way would help. Hypothetically, what if I was to tell you that your TTRPG was incapable of producing any kind of fiction, situation, social interaction, character etc, even remotely similar to any of the fiction you like. Would you care about that?

Or maybe Protean. What I want, really, is what all the players want. If they want to banter as though they're in Eddings, go to it (though that's not my forte as a GM); if they want complex social interactions, I want that; if they want a heist, I want that (though, again, not really GMing to my strengths, and it'll probably look nothing like Leverage).

Great response! But I guess more of what I am asking is whether your TTRPG and the mechanics as you utilize them capable of producing banter as though your players are in the Eddings. Is it capable of producing complex social interactions? Is it capable of producing a heist like Leverage?

If not, is it the TTRPG itself, the particular way you use the mechanics or something else?

 

[prabe]

Maybe approaching it this way would help. Hypothetically, what if I was to tell you that your TTRPG was incapable of producing any kind of fiction, situation, social interaction, character etc, even remotely similar to any of the fiction you like. Would you care about that?

Erm. Maybe, maybe not. I played something like a dozen sessions of the Serenity game, and I knew nothing of (and didn't really care much for) the show. OTOH, I liked and trusted the GM and the other players, and the game was a hoot. So, I have played and enjoyed a game strictly limited to modeling specific fiction I didn't like. Seems like an answer.

Great response! But I guess more of what I am asking is whether your TTRPG and the mechanics as you utilize them capable of producing banter as though your players are in the Eddings. Is it capable of producing complex social interactions? Is it capable of producing a heist like Leverage?

If not, is it the TTRPG itself, the particular way you use the mechanics or something else?

Banter? That's the table, not the game, IMO. I think it might be possible but difficult to run a heist in 5E, but I haven't tried. I know there are games written specifically to do heists, like Blades in the Dark, but I bounced hard off the SRD for that, so ... that's not an option for me to run.

 

[FrogReaver]

Erm. Maybe, maybe not. I played something like a dozen sessions of the Serenity game, and I knew nothing of (and didn't really care much for) the show. OTOH, I liked and trusted the GM and the other players, and the game was a hoot. So, I have played and enjoyed a game strictly limited to modeling specific fiction I didn't like. Seems like an answer.

Just so we are clear... Your answer is that you have no preference about whether the TTRPGs you play can support fiction and/or fictional elements from that fiction that you like? Because that's an extraordinary answer if it's the case.

 

[FrogReaver]

I dunno if it's helpful, but I found a scene from (early in) one of my campaigns, from my wife's notes. The Dilyarli is a medusa reskinned as a cold fey. Taman's family were killed by one. Mo is a bard; other named folks are characters in the party. Yes, I botched the effect, the players and I have discussed that and decided it worked in-story.



Hope that helps as far as how I handle social situations.

So I'm curious why the 1 person actually charged the creature after his allies had just negotiated a peaceful solution?

BTW, great play example.

 

[pemerton]

I'm pretty sure none of what happened in either instance is "interference."

In Str Wars Luke scoffs at Han's offer - "We could buy our own ship for that price" and then subsequently insults it when he sees it. And they argue over whether or not the Force is a genuine phenomenon. And when he leaves just before the attack on the Death Star Han is criticised. Yet he comes back to save Luke.

I don't see how this sort of dynamic - whether between PCs, or between PCs and NPCs - is meant to emerge in the NPC-as-puzzle and party-as-hydra approach.

 

[FrogReaver]

In Str Wars Luke scoffs at Han's offer - "We could buy our own ship for that price" and then subsequently insults it when he sees it. And they argue over whether or not the Force is a genuine phenomenon. And when he leaves just before the attack on the Death Star Han is criticised. Yet he comes back to save Luke.

I don't see how this sort of dynamic - whether between PCs, or between PCs and NPCs - is meant to emerge in the NPC-as-puzzle and party-as-hydra approach.

Sadly, I think that Han (an NPC) coming back to save Luke would break verisimilitude for most playing a TTRPG.

 

[Numidius]

Sadly, I think that Han (an NPC) coming back to save Luke would break verisimilitude for most playing a TTRPG.

I believe it depends on what kind of npc is Han, and who gets to "control" him via mechanics or fiat. D&D used to have henchmen, hirelings, mercenaries etc. Vampire allies, contacts, herd etc. Just to name a couple of games.

 

[Imaculata]

I'm wondering how I would have handled this social interaction with the Baron if it had come up in any of my campaigns. I've had lots of social encounters in my sessions as a DM. I always establish clear motivations and goals for an npc. The npc basically has wants, and do-not-wants. They have things they want to achieve, and things they are trying to avoid. And they have information that they may be willing or unwilling to share with the party.

During a social encounter, players can contribute if they want to. Generally no check is needed for that. It is only when the players are trying to convince the npc to move from his position, or to acquire information he is not willing to give up, that a check is required. The difficulty of that check is determined by whether the topic conflicts with the npc's wants or do-not-wants. If it does, the check will be higher. I generally try to keep checks reasonable, so that even players with low social skill have a chance of beating the DC. If a group of players is involved in the social encounter, I ask the players who of them wants to make the roll. This will usually be the face of the party; the one with the best social skills.

If my players had insulted the Baron, the face of the party would have to succeed on a high check to undo that damage. But drawing a weapon and making an attempt on the Baron's life? There's only so much a social check can reasonably do. At that point the Baron would order his men to kill the attacker, or to have him seized.

Of course, this does not have to be the end of that adventure. The players can resist arrest on the spot (either by trying to escape, or starting combat). They can try to free their companions from jail, either covertly (a prison break, or a bribe), or by striking a deal with the Baron (quest hook).

This is provided that the player who attacked the Baron intends to continue play from this point. If he regrets his actions, I see no issue with rewinding and pretending it didn't happen.