Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay

[FrogReaver]

I fully agree with the second half of what I've quoted. And mostly agree with the first half - maybe always is too strong if taken literally, but I think there are problems with "negotiation as puzzle-solving" in general, and especially if this is meant to require that the PCs cooperate with nasty people.

Agreed. Poor word choice on my part. I didn't mean always in the sense that every instance where X happens Y will happen. I meant always in the sense that as long as X is occurring we will not eliminate Y from occurring.

 

[Fenris-77]

This is not going to permit dynamic social interaction. And it means that PC build choices around CHA and the like become reduced in signficance.

Sure it can. I didn't say every single instance had to be run like that, nor did I say anything about actual adjudication of the actions, just that there are ways to get past groups who only ever let/want the highest CHA player to do all the talking because it means doing all the rolling (assuming that's the goal in the first place, which there was upstream). Moving to actual dynamic social interaction is sometimes best accomplished an series of small steps with some groups and play styles. Even in this model the high CHA player is still leading the interaction, but there's room for other players to be somewhat involved without thinking that they are risking the 'good' roll by doing so.

I don't think just having the one high CHA player do all the talking, all the time, is particularly dynamic at the table.

 

[FrogReaver]

I tell you three times I tell you three times I tell you three times: Tolkien was not writing a TRPG campaign. Tolkien was not writing a TRPG campaign. Tolkien was not writing a TRPG campaign.

I agree Tokien is not a TTRPG and particularly not one well suited for D&D style play. The characters are just too disparate in abilities. But IMO that criticism doesn't really apply to the social interactions in the story. So I think the incapability of generating similar social interactions in a TTRPG (or playstlye) to Tolkien is a bit of a blackmark against any TTRPG or playstyle. I mean if you find a style fun and it doesn't do that then that's fine. But to me if I'm evaluating a TTRPG that's something I would highly value in one.

 

[prabe]

I agree Tokien is not a TTRPG and particularly not one well suited for D&D style play. The characters are just too disparate in abilities. But that criticism doesn't really apply to the social interactions in the story. So I think the incapability of generating similar social interactions in a TTRPG (or playstlye) to Tolkien is a bit of a blackmark against any TTRPG or playstyle. I mean if you find a style fun and it doesn't do that then that's fine. But to me if I'm evaluating a TTRPG that's something I would highly value in one.

That's fair. As someone who is not a fan of Tolkien, I get a little cranky seeing LotR being held up as some sort of Platonic ideal of D&D gameplay. I suppose my unfandom means that if I'm trying to replicate those things, it's not because they're in Tolkien. Obviously, someone who is a fan of Tolkien would have a different outlook, here.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's fair. As someone who is not a fan of Tolkien, I get a little cranky seeing LotR being held up as some sort of Platonic ideal of D&D gameplay. I suppose my unfandom means that if I'm trying to replicate those things, it's not because they're in Tolkien. Obviously, someone who is a fan of Tolkien would have a different outlook, here.

I'm curious, what would be your ideal fantasy adventure that a TTRPG should be able to handle elements from?

 

[prabe]

I'm curious, what would be your ideal fantasy adventure that a TTRPG should be able to handle elements from?

That's a fair question. I'm not in practice a huge fan of Fantasy as a genre; my favorite author who comes close to D&D is Pratchett, and to a large extent he's simultaneously writing Satire while taking the piss out of Fantasy. My attitude is kinda like Superheroes: I think there are awesome stories waiting to emerge in TRPG play in the genre, but much of the source material is crap (or at least has aspects that drive me up the wall, like recurring villains).

As I think about it, I realize that I can't think of a single piece of published fiction, at any length, that I want to replicate in a TRPG. I'm happiest, I think, when the story of a TRPG emerges from play, rather than is imposed by the GM (or a published adventure). The characters have goals, and they set out to attain them; the party work together in the attainment of those goals (probably in sequence, though I have a party that is working in an odd parallel). I mean, I like at least some of the usual suspects (Zelazny, Ellison, Donaldson) but there are others (Tolkien, Martin, Rowling) that I pretty much cannot abide. Looking at that list, it seems as though much of the Fantasy I like is pretty much the least like D&D, which seems as though it might mean something.

It's not as though novels or other media are never an influence or a source, though. I mean, I'll grab things from books and plop them into my campaigns: I dropped Calla from King's Dark Tower into one campaign (with a different mechanism behind it), and I grabbed the title of a pretty mediocre book and the Epiphany Machine is a creepy thing that now exists in my setting. Those are probably not exactly what you're asking about, though; I'm probably trying to prove that I crack the occasional non-gaming book

Is that a suitable answer? If you were asking what elements I'd like to see included, that's a different answer.

 

[FrogReaver]

As I think about it, I realize that I can't think of a single piece of published fiction, at any length, that I want to replicate in a TRPG. I'm happiest, I think, when the story of a TRPG emerges from play, rather than is imposed by the GM (or a published adventure).

Let me start here, because I don't think this is a fair critique of what I or anyone else is suggesting. Everyone wants the story to emerge from play and not be imposed by the GM. So what am I asking? I am asking what elements from some of your favorite fiction should a TTRPG be capable of having emerge from playing it. For me LORT-esque social interaction would be something that should be able to naturally emerge from playing the game. Does that make more sense?

 

[FrogReaver]

That's a fair question. I'm not in practice a huge fan of Fantasy as a genre; my favorite author who comes close to D&D is Pratchett, and to a large extent he's simultaneously writing Satire while taking the piss out of Fantasy. My attitude is kinda like Superheroes: I think there are awesome stories waiting to emerge in TRPG play in the genre, but much of the source material is crap (or at least has aspects that drive me up the wall, like recurring villains).

Thanks, I actually think D&D villians tend to get killed a bit to often.

The characters have goals, and they set out to attain them; the party work together in the attainment of those goals (probably in sequence, though I have a party that is working in an odd parallel). I mean, I like at least some of the usual suspects (Zelazny, Ellison, Donaldson) but there are others (Tolkien, Martin, Rowling) that I pretty much cannot abide. Looking at that list, it seems as though much of the Fantasy I like is pretty much the least like D&D, which seems as though it might mean something.

Interesting.

It's not as though novels or other media are never an influence or a source, though. I mean, I'll grab things from books and plop them into my campaigns: I dropped Calla from King's Dark Tower into one campaign (with a different mechanism behind it), and I grabbed the title of a pretty mediocre book and the Epiphany Machine is a creepy thing that now exists in my setting. Those are probably not exactly what you're asking about, though; I'm probably trying to prove that I crack the occasional non-gaming book

Is that a suitable answer? If you were asking what elements I'd like to see included, that's a different answer.

Well, those are more setting pieces and such than what kind of emergent play you believe should be possible in a game. For example as @pemerton has noted, LOTR-esque emergent social situations are not possible with the social encounter style that you are following. Which is probably fine if you don't like LOTR, but what I'm trying to discover is whether your social encounter style actually allows for emerging social situations that resemble social situations in your favorite fictional works.

 

[prabe]

Let me start here, because I don't think this is a fair critique of what I or anyone else is suggesting. Everyone wants the story to emerge from play and not be imposed by the GM. So what am I asking? I am asking what elements from some of your favorite fiction should a TTRPG be capable of having emerge from playing it. For me LORT-esque social interaction would be something that should be able to naturally emerge from playing the game. Does that make more sense?

I'm sorry. That looks as though I'm accusing all-a-y'all of railroading, and that's not my intent.

I'm actually pretty serious, though, that the published fiction I like best is ... not what I want to play in a TRPG. The pleasures I get from reading fiction are, now that I think about it, starkly different from the pleasures I get from TRPGs. I mean, yes, it's helpful to have read a lot, but I get more inspiration for TRPGs from something like The Devil in the White City or Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded (and it's not as though I'd ever run PCs up against an analog of either H.H. Holmes or an EL-7+ eruption) than from any piece of fiction.

I swear I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just really strange.

Or maybe Protean. What I want, really, is what all the players want. If they want to banter as though they're in Eddings, go to it (though that's not my forte as a GM); if they want complex social interactions, I want that; if they want a heist, I want that (though, again, not really GMing to my strengths, and it'll probably look nothing like Leverage).

 

[Fenris-77]

If I had to pick an IP that I wanted a TTRPG to be able to handle the elements of social interaction out of it would be Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards series.