D&D 5E Class power and Subclass design space: a discussion

[Olrox17]

The trick would be to avoid the combat benefits from ever being specific to the creature type, yet obviously useful against that creature.

If I remember right, that's exactly what the WotC poster (that might be Minigiant with a different username) was suggesting way back.
For instance, Favored enemy: Dragon would be something like this:

• Immunity to the frightened condition
• Advantage on Dex saves against area effects

Clearly amazing stuff against dragons, but generally useful as well.

 

[Minigiant]

Wait, I was on the WotC forums back then, and I remember a poster coming up with something like that. Did you go by a different username on those forums?

I went by a different name. I forget which one. But I didn't use Minigiant.

That's exactly what Ruin is saying: they replaced a feature that only affected the Exploration pillar, and gave instead a feature that replicate the same effect (better at tracking creature) while also being useful in combat (+1d6 damage). Its a win-win, no?

I saw it as a downgrade or replacement as you lossthe bonus language and the bonus to info checks. The bonus language comes into play at more tables than Tracking. Tracking is iconic for rangers but it is very very very niche.

The extra spell from Awareness are all Exploration spells, no extra damage there, but the effect of these spells interact better with the 5e system than favored terrain which gave bonus to a mini-game often skipped by tables (overland travel WHILE ALONE, in an GROUP GAME!?, finding food/water automatically, thus removing the ressource gathering mini-game altogether, yeahhh )

Anything is better than Primeval Awareness. Doesn't Count.
I dunno how rangers only has TWO spells known at level 2 and can't swap spells overnight.

That's my whole point. Everything unique Ranger core class feature is extremely niche and written like it wasn't tested.

The variant features boost the ranger in and out of combat, and by removing the ''lone wolf'' or ''auto-succeed'' features, it allows the player to actually engage with the exploration subsystem in a meaningful way that would benefit the whole group of players who are also here to enjoy the exploration part of the game. No more ''well the Ranger guides you without any problem through the forest, while finding enough food so nobody else has to roll''. We used to call the Ranger the Fast-Travel class Now having a ranger while travelling is a huge boon instead of a class that makes one whole pillar uninteresting.

And my question is "why didn't they do that from the beginning?"

Favored enemy and Natural Explorer being written poorly doesn't mean they couldn't been written well. It felt like FE and NE were just included to fit the quota of having iconic ranger stuff then all the cool stuff was shoved into spells and subclasses. Then they forgot about that plan.

 

[Minigiant]

HM is also advantage on checks on the target. So you can use it out of combat.

I'd have also allowed you do use it on tracks of a creature, which makes it even better.

The issue is that Tracking is both Iconic to ranger and Super Niche. Making Tracking Ranger's only noncombat thing from the replacement is 95% removing the noncombat aspect.

I do like that.

But you do end up with a long list of such features. Do you duplicate? Zzz. Do you not? Wow, lots of work.

So?
Better then not doing it then having to make a revised version then 2.5 pages of UA CFV and people still not being happy.

The trick would be to avoid the combat benefits from ever being specific to the creature type, yet obviously useful against that creature.

Again not so hard. Half of it is already in the game under Hunter.

Patrick Star: We should take the Hunter subclass and push it somewhere else!

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Anything is better than Primeval Awareness. Doesn't Count.
I dunno how rangers only has TWO spells known at level 2 and can't swap spells overnight.

That's my whole point. Everything unique Ranger core class feature is extremely niche and written like it wasn't tested.

Indeed!

I saw it as a downgrade or replacement as you lossthe bonus language and the bonus to info checks. The bonus language comes into play at more tables than Tracking. Tracking is iconic for rangers but it is very very very niche.

Dont forget they added other variant:
''Canny
Choose one skill: Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. You gain proficiency in the chosen skill if you don't already have it, and you can add double your proficiency bonus to ability checks using that skill.

In addition, thanks to your extensive wandering, you are able to speak, read, and write two languages of your choice.''

The feature was more ''displaced'' than removed.

And my question is "why didn't they do that from the beginning?"

Favored enemy and Natural Explorer being written poorly doesn't mean they couldn't been written well. It felt like FE and NE were just included to fit the quota of having iconic ranger stuff then all the cool stuff was shoved into spells and subclasses. Then they forgot about that plan

I'm with you on this. If we were allowed to share stuff from the playtest, I'd post a comparison of what the playest features offered and what the PHB ranger received instead. I remember when people saw the gloomstalker that allows it to be ''immune'' to darkvision and were all ''that's so cool'' while I remembered that the playtest gave all rangers ''immunity'' to darkvision/echolocation and tremorsense. Now that was a cool feature!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ensuring every single subclass has something to spend wildshape uses on should be enough to make 20th level capstone worthwhile.

I don’t really understand the complaint as is, though. Every Druid I’ve seen uses wild shape pretty frequently.

A capstone where you can be a bird and cast spells is always cool.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Indeed!



Dont forget they added other variant:
''Canny
Choose one skill: Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. You gain proficiency in the chosen skill if you don't already have it, and you can add double your proficiency bonus to ability checks using that skill.

In addition, thanks to your extensive wandering, you are able to speak, read, and write two languages of your choice.''

The feature was more ''displaced'' than removed.



I'm with you on this. If we were allowed to share stuff from the playtest, I'd post a comparison of what the playest features offered and what the PHB ranger received instead. I remember when people saw the gloomstalker that allows it to be ''immune'' to darkvision and were all ''that's so cool'' while I remembered that the playtest gave all rangers ''immunity'' to darkvision/echolocation and tremorsense. Now that was a cool feature!

Why can’t we share stuff from the playtest?

Anyway, IMO all the stuff in the UA for ranger features can just be added, rather than replacing anything.

 

[NotAYakk]

The two ranger archetypes from the playtest are really the ''Hunter'' split on two different sublasses. One was fighting hordes/minions/swarms (Hordebreaker, Against the Horde, Stand against the tide) while the other was to fight single large creatures (colossus slayer/steel will/evasion)

I think having a ranger with archetypes based on 1)how they hunt or 2)where they hunt would a been better. I think, in the last UAs, we've seen the the dead end of having all those features being in one archetype or shared by the base class: Fey ranger? Beekeeper? ...just wow, those are far-fetched

Or even going Warlock-style.

You get your Where/What they hunt subclasses, and your Conclave.

I could even imagine a Ranger with Pact Magic (short rest spellcasting), but that would probably go too far.

Heck, imagine "Invocations" replaced with "Hunts". Each hunt is a terrain or a creature type, and offers knowledge of that terrain/creature plus generic benefits.

 

[Olrox17]

Why can’t we share stuff from the playtest?

All the playtest documents had a little "Confidential information of Wizards of the Coast LLC. Do not distribute" note on them.

 

[Minigiant]

Dont forget they added other variant:
''Canny
Choose one skill: Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. You gain proficiency in the chosen skill if you don't already have it, and you can add double your proficiency bonus to ability checks using that skill.

In addition, thanks to your extensive wandering, you are able to speak, read, and write two languages of your choice.''

The feature was more ''displaced'' than removed.

Oh I knew. I was treating the replacements individually. Together Favored Foe and Deft Explorer aren't bad substitutions if you take Canny.

I'm with you on this. If we were allowed to share stuff from the playtest, I'd post a comparison of what the playest features offered and what the PHB ranger received instead. I remember when people saw the gloomstalker that allows it to be ''immune'' to darkvision and were all ''that's so cool'' while I remembered that the playtest gave all rangers ''immunity'' to darkvision/echolocation and tremorsense. Now that was a cool feature!

Or the playtest capstone.
Sometimes I wonder want playtest feedback they got.
However the playtest ranger was too subclass focused as well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

All the playtest documents had a little "Confidential information of Wizards of the Coast LLC. Do not distribute" note on them.

Oh good lord...defend us from the stupidity of corporate entities.