D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Olrox17]

Please tell me you understand that the discussion about how those elements of the game make people of colour feel and not that this is about the imaginary feelings of orcs. This is about how people feel and not about a benign artistic choice.

Yes, we've been over this. It's wrong and unfortunate that people of color have been targeted (violently or not) and insulted in the past and now. Those insults are false. They're lies, propagated by racist liars.
Countless other cultures (gauls, germanics, norse, turks, mongols, etc) have been similarly characterized in the past. We've moved on.
I believe no present day french, german, swedish, turkish or mongolian person would feel offended by the D&D depiction of orcs, even though their ancestors were characterized in a similar way. In time, that will be true for people of color, as well.

What I DON'T want to do, is breathe further life in a racist lie by changing a game to accommodate it. If some racist guy affirms that black people and evil D&D orcs are, in fact, the same, the right reaction is debating him to oblivion (if online) or a good kick to the rear (if offline).
We shouldn't let bad ideologies appropriate things, ruining them for everyone else.

 

[Helldritch]

Yes, we've been over this. It's wrong and unfortunate that people of color have been targeted (violently or not) and insulted in the past and now. Those insults are false. They're lies, propagated by racist liars.
Countless other cultures (gauls, germanics, norse, turks, mongols, etc) have been similarly characterized in the past. We've moved on.
I believe no present day french, german, swedish, turkish or mongolian person would feel offended by the D&D depiction of orcs, even though their ancestors were characterized in a similar way. In time, that will be true for people of color, as well.

What I DON'T want to do, is breathe further life in a racist lie by changing a game to accommodate it. If some racist guy affirms that black people and evil D&D orcs are, in fact, the same, the right reaction is debating him to oblivion (if online) or a good kick to the rear (if offline).
We shouldn't let bad ideologies appropriate things, ruining them for everyone else.

This is exactly where I stand too. By acknowledging such far fetched associations, we are giving credits to the racists that claim such stupidities. There are no comparisons that stand from orcs to black people. I heard that right here and nowhere else. Itwould never have cross my mind to even imagine such absurd a comparison. And yet, some people...

Do not change something to accommodate racists, you are giving them power and THAT is exactly what they want.

 

[TheSword]

Yes, we've been over this. It's wrong and unfortunate that people of color have been targeted (violently or not) and insulted in the past and now. Those insults are false. They're lies, propagated by racist liars.
Countless other cultures (gauls, germanics, norse, turks, mongols, etc) have been similarly characterized in the past. We've moved on.
I believe no present day french, german, swedish, turkish or mongolian person would feel offended by the D&D depiction of orcs, even though their ancestors were characterized in a similar way. In time, that will be true for people of color, as well.

What I DON'T want to do, is breathe further life in a racist lie by changing a game to accommodate it. If some racist guy affirms that black people and evil D&D orcs are, in fact, the same, the right reaction is debating him to oblivion (if online) or a good kick to the rear (if offline).
We shouldn't let bad ideologies appropriate things, ruining them for everyone else.

If I make one thing clear, It is that this is not an imaginary problem. There ARE currently people of colour who have a problem with this and the way people implement this in the game. The essays are well documented and by all accounts it is common discussion amongst people who have experienced it.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, we've been over this. It's wrong and unfortunate that people of color have been targeted (violently or not) and insulted in the past and now. Those insults are false. They're lies, propagated by racist liars.
Countless other cultures (gauls, germanics, norse, turks, mongols, etc) have been similarly characterized in the past. We've moved on.
I believe no present day french, german, swedish, turkish or mongolian person would feel offended by the D&D depiction of orcs, even though their ancestors were characterized in a similar way. In time, that will be true for people of color, as well.

What I DON'T want to do, is breathe further life in a racist lie by changing a game to accommodate it. If some racist guy affirms that black people and evil D&D orcs are, in fact, the same, the right reaction is debating him to oblivion (if online) or a good kick to the rear (if offline).
We shouldn't let bad ideologies appropriate things, ruining them for everyone else.

Do you honestly not see how incredibly paternalistic and offensive this is?

"Oh, be a good little minority like these other good little minorities and just wait and you'll 'get over' being offended. Don't make too much trouble. You don't want to be a problem do you? You don't want to hurt people's feelings right? So, just hush now, be patient and in a couple of hundred years, this will all be over."

I'm sorry, but, I'm REALLY struggling to think of this as anything other than either mind blowingly naive or deliberately offensive.

 

[Olrox17]

All right, @Hussar and @TheSword, I believe we've had enough of that kind of discussion in the other 2 threads. Literally thousands of posts, had to be locked by the mods.
I will not contribute to getting this one locked, as well.

I've already expressed my ideas on how heritage and inclusivity could be both preserved in D&D. If anyone wants to critique my proposals, feel free. Bring your own suggestions, and let's discuss them.
Otherwise, I'm out. Have fun rereading the other two threads.

 

[TheSword]

All right, @Hussar and @TheSword, I believe we've had enough of that kind of discussion in the other 2 threads. Literally thousands of posts, had to be locked by the mods.
I will not contribute to getting this one locked, as well.

I've already expressed my ideas on how heritage and inclusivity could be both preserved in D&D. If anyone wants to critique my proposals, feel free. Bring your own suggestions, and let's discuss them.
Otherwise, I'm out. Have fun rereading the other two threads.

No issue with the subject matter but if someone posts trivializing this as a non-issue, or that issues are equivalent to big foot sightings, or says woe is me I’m white and being oppressed, then please expect to be corrected.

The topic is heritage AND inclusivity. I’m seeing a lot of the former and not much of the latter from the last three pages of posters.

 

[S'mon]

[
The same was said about chainmail bikinis and gay characters in published products. The game changed and we got over it.

Personally I have both chain bikinis and gay characters in my games! There were always male and female gay couples in my FR Loudwater campaign, and there are Red Sonja types in my sword and sorcery settings. Lots of female players love playing that sort of character just as many male players love playing Conan types.

 

[Olrox17]

No issue with the subject matter but if someone posts trivializing this as a non-issue, or that issues are equivalent to big foot sightings, or says woe is me I’m white and being oppressed, then please expect to be corrected.

The topic is heritage AND inclusivity. I’m seeing a lot of the former and not much of the latter from the last three pages of posters.

This is not a contest. Bring your own suggestion on how heritage AND inclusivity can be both preserved, and let's discuss them together. If you believe there is no acceptable way to preserve both, this thread probably isn't for you.

 

[TheSword]

This is not a contest. Bring your own suggestion on how heritage AND inclusivity can be both preserved, and let's discuss them together. If you believe there is no acceptable way to preserve both, this thread probably isn't for you.

I’ll take no gatekeeping on a thread that discusses inclusivity. I have already posted that heritage is not a good reason to maintain the status quo. It is the base line only not the end point.

 

[Olrox17]

I’ll take no gatekeeping on a thread that discusses inclusivity. I have already posted that heritage is not a good reason to maintain the status quo. It is the base line only not the end point.

Gatekeeping? Really? You're going there? Just because I suggested that maybe your line of discussion was dangerous for the thread's lifespan, after a mod warned us? I'm not gatekeeping you, I'm trying to stop you from threadcrapping.
I'm not going to indulge you any further in this argument.