OSR At What Level Is Survivability Possible?

[Retreater]

I'm looking into the OSR movement to find something simple and quick to run for an online group with not a lot of time for long sessions. One player has complained that 5e requires too much looking at the sheet and it takes him out of the game. So I'm looking into Old School Essentials based on good reviews and testimonials on here.
Everyone in this group started with AD&D 2nd edition, so we're not completely spoiled by 5e character power levels. But I just cannot wrap my head around a single kobold being the statistic equal to a 1st level PC. And even "smart play" that requires a 10% hide in shadows to sneak up on them is almost a guaranteed fail.
I'm thinking that the only way B/X works is to start higher than 1st level. What level do you think the game (or OSR in general) gives the characters a fair chance to survive a battle of even weak monsters?

 

[jgsugden]

It takes a while to reacquaint yourself with the rules if you have not used them in decades, but survivability is possible at 1st level. If you read the rules incorrectly, it makes things harder, often. It is a harsher game, but the majority of PCs survived in the games in which I played.

Regardless, I rarely look at my 5E character sheet during a game, whether I am playing a wizard, a fighter or a monk. I also very rarely need to look at a book. I find myself doing so far less in 5E than in prior editions, especially when it comes to looking up rules.

What are your players constantly needing to reference? Is it something you can track for them on a single sheet for the entire party, such as their saving throws, or skill bonuses?

 

[WebDMJim]

It's possible to survive at first level, even as a magic-user. Play smart, don't rush into things, and prepare to retreat if necessary. Also, hirelings increase your chances of surviving. In fact, in the OD&D games I've been in, it's usually 3rd-4th level that saw more PC deaths as players grow overconfident.

Don't kobolds have 1/2 HD anyway?

 

[iserith]

My experience with old school play is that you don't get into fights you can avoid. Depending on the game, the goal is to acquire treasure which translates into XP rather than needing to fight to acquire XP. To the extent you can get the treasure without having to fight, that is a win. If you have to fight, then what you do is plan and strategize to set up the monster for an ambush, using the terrain and your resources to make it a one-sided battle.

 

[Voadam]

At what level do you feel they are surviveable in 5e/3e?

5e and 3e characters have max hp at first level so that is about twice the hp of an OSR AD&D 1st level character (OD&D and B/X characters have smaller HD for the same classes so they will be even weaker) so as a rough guide add 1 level for a hp surviveability equivalency, possibly two.

Also remember spellcasters do not get cantrips, so they are much more limited in low level spell options as a fight goes on.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

A lot depends on both the DM and the players. There's no rule that you have to put a pit with poisoned spikes in your first adventure. It does help if the players are smart about it, but I don't think Dark Souls deadliness is something that has to be baked into OSR-style play.

But, keep in mind that I hate advanced starts in RPGs. I feel like you don't get the same character if they don't start at the beginning. Regardless, it's your campaign, your choice.

But, if you had me quantifying when it starts to get a little easier, it's when the PCs start to have access to Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Cure Serious Wounds, and Raise Dead, whether by having a cleric or having the gold to afford them. So, generally in the 5th-8th level. But that means missing out on a ton of formative experiences.

 

[Retreater]

Don't kobolds have 1/2 HD anyway?

In Basic (OSE) they have 1d4, same as magic user and thief. In the sample fighter I rolled he had 3hp at 1st level with no attack bonus. Statistically identical to the Kobold.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The simple problem with OSR stuff and survivability is a math one, that's hard to work around.

In most OSR games, at lower levels, particularly L1, you are very likely to have few enough HP that you can be downed in a single non-critical attack. Some OSR games have that as death, others make a few modern concessions (or 2E concessions even) and make it merely hard to recover from.

And whilst you can play smart, and avoid as much combat as possible, and ambush where you can't avoid and so on, it's still quite likely even a smart player, in a smart group, is going to have their PC killed in typical OSR rules, simply because of literally one unlucky (and not even crit) roll.

I mean, I'm surprised people are trying to argue around this. Anyone who played older editions or who has played OSR games know that it's basically true. Unless you manage to almost entirely avoid combat until around L3, the chances are quite high that some PCs will die (barring generous death rules).

The only good ways around this are:

1) As the OP suggests, start at a higher level (L3 is usually good).

2) Adopt modern rules on HP/death (i.e. max HP at L1, death saves or similar, etc.).

3) Run relatively combat-free adventures until L3 (I've seen it done).

Honestly, if I was going to run an OSR-type game, I'd go with fixed HP like 5E. I've never, ever, in thirty years, seen random HP make for a better or more fun game. Occasionally they make for an amusing anecdote, but overall they are simply deleterious to gameplay as a rule, and produce terrible scenarios where a good character is ruined by a couple of bad rolls they can do literally nothing about. No other single roll in the game can so profoundly weaken or ruin a character, particularly as there is absolute no mitigation, no "bad luck control" or anything of the sort, unlike a lot of other stuff.

 

[Libramarian]

In my Roll20 classic D&D campaign I do start PCs with max HP. This also ensures different classes start with appropriate relative HPs, rather than the Fighter rolling a 1 and the MU rolling a 4.

There is very little adventure material truly written for level 1s. Most "Level 1-3" stuff will steamroll true level 1s due to the mathematical fact that Level 2s are expected to have twice as many HPs.

You could also start with an XP kicker (because the XP tables differ by class, you want to start at a given XP, not level). I would go with 2500 XP, which would put F/C/MU at level 2, T at level 3.

 

[iserith]

And whilst you can play smart, and avoid as much combat as possible, and ambush where you can't avoid and so on, it's still quite likely even a smart player, in a smart group, is going to have their PC killed in typical OSR rules, simply because of literally one unlucky (and not even crit) roll.

I mean, I'm surprised people are trying to argue around this. Anyone who played older editions or who has played OSR games know that it's basically true. Unless you manage to almost entirely avoid combat until around L3, the chances are quite high that some PCs will die (barring generous death rules)

Who cares if they do? It's D&D. Sometimes characters die. You play as smart as you can to avoid that outcome and hope for the best.