D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[TaranTheWanderer]

If only there was a tradition of an MM 2 and MM 3 to put more of them in...

Well, I never bought the MM2 or 3 in any editions I played because there was more than enough 'creative juice' to be squeezed from the main one.. I like the idea of having a toolbox of a DMG, MM and PHB. The more books you add as 'necessary', the less inclusive it becomes because of the the rise in price: not everyone will be able to afford 4 books.

But I've never been a big fan of all the extra books but, at least, they were add-ons. You didn't NEED the extra books to play the game.

 

[Mercule]

Well, you seem to have snipped too much, because your presentation of Orcs being bad because of metaphysical laws is the exact opposite of what I said in that post.

And, I said you're overthinking it. I seriously have no problem with orcs being free agents that are evil only because of upbringing, curse, or just overactive adrenaline.

There's also nothing wrong with saying "orcs are evil because they are". They're a made up race and, if that's one of the characteristics of them, so be it. There is nothing immoral in that.

Note: I'm not talking about in-game people saying that. I'm talking about the GM or game designers saying that it's a fact that is true. In that case, every PC/NPC trying to argue that you need to reform the orcs is a fool. Just like, if orcs have free agency, those saying "kill them all" are racists. It really depends on what you want out of your game.

As a game designer/GM, saying all orcs are inherently and irredeemably evil is no more racist/wrong/troublesome than saying demons/devils/angels/werewolves/slaadi are inherently aligned. It a question about game design. I have zero problem with WotC defining orcs as having free agency. As I said, before, that's actually my preference. Pretending like its some moral triumph or righting of past wrongs is pretentious and silly, though. Orcs don't exist. They aren't an allegory for any specific race/ethnicity/religion in the real world. If anything, they're an allegory for the brutishness and evil that is within any of us and a sort of "there, but for the grace of God" type thing, but I wouldn't push any deeper meaning too far. It's like all the emo Vampire: the Masquerade LARPers in the 1990s who though they were making deep commentary about the world.

 

[Imaculata]

I can't speak for the people who are complaining about the depiction of orcs, but how I view this subject is that they are being offended by the fact that orcs are dehumanized. If we were to make them complete monsters and no longer people, I think that's totally the wrong direction to go.

But why? Kobolt are just monsters, right? And so are hobgoblins? Are orcs different? I always assumed that the Monster Manual is filled with creatures that are intended for the players to fight, orcs included.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

But why? Kobolt are just monsters, right? And so are hobgoblins? Are orcs different? I always assumed that the Monster Manual is filled with creatures that are intended for the players to fight, orcs included.

Kobolds and hobgoblins aren't the main problem, but I would like them to be changed as well. The monster manual has monsters to fight, but do those monsters have to be whole races of people?

 

[Imaculata]

Kobolds and hobgoblins aren't the main problem, but I would like them to be changed as well. The monster manual has monsters to fight, but do those monsters have to be whole races of people?

So, are you saying that every race in the monster manual that is inherently evil (or just presented in a very negative light), is problematic for the same reason orcs as a race are?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So, are you saying that every race in the monster manual that is inherently evil (or just presented in a very negative light), is problematic for the same reason orcs as a race are?

Not problematic for the same reasons, there are definitely more parallels between orcs and how white supremacists have described black people than there are the other "monstrous races".

It is problematic that these races that have depth, culture, religion, and society are depicted as nearly completely evil.

 

[Derren]

It is problematic that these races that have depth, culture, religion, and society are depicted as nearly completely evil.

So do aboleths and mind flayer. Are they problematic, too?

 

[Maxperson]

Pardon my french, but WTF? Right above me, literally the post before you this you just said

So, how is it impossible to make them not-people if you are saying they literally by definition cannot be people?

So you can't make orcs a "not-people" unless they were people in the first place. Orcs have never been people, so not possible. They can be LINKED to people THROUGH half-orcs, though.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So do aboleths and mind flayer. Are they problematic, too?

Do aboleths have depth or religion? Do mind flayers have culture, depth, or religion (I guess they kind of have religion).

They're not problematic, as their existences depend wholly on enslaving, killing, or eating humanoids. They're alien creatures with nearly no semblance to humans.

This doesn't apply to Orcs, Kobolds, or Hobgoblins. They have depth, culture, religion, and society. They are people. They are semi-relatable.

Some monsters should just be monsters, but that doesn't apply to humanoids. IMHO, that label of "completely monstrous and evil" is reserved for Aberrations, Undead and Fiends (and even fiends have been shown to have depth and personalities, and undead can be good).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So you can't make orcs a "not-people" unless they were people in the first place. Orcs have never been people, so not possible. They can be LINKED to people THROUGH half-orcs, though.

How the heck is someone that's not a person going to have a child with a person. They are both people. Edit: Furthermore, if orcs aren't people, wouldn't, by your reasoning, half-orcs be half-people?

Here is one definition of people:
the men, women, and children of a particular nation, community, or ethnic group.

How doesn't this apply to orcs?