WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[wingsandsword]

I think you may have made an error, the quote is @Reynard 's not @tommybahama's

Sorry about that.

I was trying to write a reply to posts by both of them, I think I got mixed up which reply went to whom.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Can someone elighten me?

The term 'Oriental' maybe doesnt have the same connotations here in Australia than elsewhere.

Whats wrong with the title?

Nothing. No more than "Occidental" should bother people IMO.

 

[Sadras]

Sadras, you may have forgotten, but I linked and discussed these OA review videos in another thread about OA.

I did not know that - only knew about the one 2 years ago (linked upthread)

Did you know about the below which was included in the book? They seemed to have skipped it in the little of their video which I watched. That is pretty disingeneous by them. Guess Gygax and co had "Sensitivity Consultants" but that didn't stop the Haters who gonna hate.

"Special Thanks to
Whenever a project of this size is put together, there are many people who give their time and extra effort to see it through.This is particularly true for Oriental Adventures as there was much assembling and doublechecking of the fine details of rulesand culture. No doubt there are some who have been left off this list, but they deserve every praise nonetheless.

...(snip)...

To the Japanese players Masataka Ohta, Akira Saito, Hiroyasu Kurose, Takafumi Sakurai, and Yuka Tate-ishi for
critiquing and improving the manuscript on short notice. "

 

[Danzauker]

Well, as soon as the Black, Asian or Hispanic cultures of the world produce a product that stereotypes White cultures in a less-than-informed way... you will be more than free to complain about it.

I quote myself. Try reading some manga made before the '80s.

 

[jayoungr]

Looks like the fan-made books Heroes of the Orient and Monsters of the Orient have already been removed--probably by the creator, if I had to guess. Or maybe they've just been retitled, or are planned to be retitled.

 

[Guest 6801328]

FWIW, I had this same question in the 80's, when some of my asian-american friends in college tried to explain why they didn't like the term "oriental".

It's actually somewhat related to the orc discussion, in the way that language has both narrow, specific meanings, but also broader cultural implications. And that many/most of us may be totally unaware of those broader implications, because they don't affect us.

'Oriental', it was explained to me, carries a lot of baggage, especially for asian-american women, because it carries a connotation of mystique and exoticism. It was very closely associated, my friends explained to me, with so-called "yellow fever" (white guys who are into asian women.). It was a symbol of objectification of asian-american women.

They fully understood...and this is important...that this wasn't always the intent of those who used the word. But, for them, there was an uncomfortable and demeaning association. And so they asked me to not use that particular word.

I was pretty much a raging, reactionary conservative in college, and my instinct in these situations was similar to that of many posters in this thread: dig my heels in and insist that this was political correctness gone too far (reminder: we're talking the 80's here.). But in this case, having this explained by my friends...people I didn't want to hurt...I accepted it at face value and agreed to (try to) stop using the word. Unless talking about rugs.

 

[wingsandsword]

In regards to D&D being just as disrespectful to European cultures as it is to Asian cultures, I’m not sure that’s a positive argument to make. Arguing that “It’s just as bad for us” does not argue in favor of the game either.

Why?

D&D isn't meant, under normal conditions, to be a detailed recreation of a real-life or fantasy culture.

It's an adventure, the setting is a backdrop, it's the stage and scenery the play is set in.

I know there are sometimes deep-immersion detailed roleplaying campaigns where characters fully throw themselves in a fantasy culture (that may or may not be based on a RL culture), but that's not the typical play style.

The setting is meant to be evocative of a mood and style, to be something to help the players visualize the world the game is set in. For a typical game, this is a pretty superficial take. . .and 40+ years of D&D experience says that an easy way to accomplish this is to take a real-life historic setting that players at least have a passing familiarity with and make something that is strongly evocative of that. It's why Cormyr is one of the most popular parts of the Forgotten Realms. . .it's a thinly veiled pastiche of Medieval England and France.

The reason it's done so much is because it works very well for the game.

Setting materials may have more detail in them for players (and DM's) that want to make the game more involved, but most players and DM's aren't going to spend the time and effort to make some detailed cultural study and expect everyone else at the table to do so. I've played in games like that, and unless everyone is on the exact same page, you're going to have big problems.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I quote myself. Try reading some manga made before the '80s.

Well, apparently your complaints made back in the 80s fell on deaf ears and there weren't enough people who agreed with you.

Ironically... the same exact thing a few people were saying about OA back in the 80s. And its only now taken 30+ years for people to act on it. Maybe it's about time you should start re-petitioning to get the offending manga removed? Maybe it will happen this time.

 

[wingsandsword]

Can someone elighten me?

The term 'Oriental' maybe doesnt have the same connotations here in Australia than elsewhere.

Whats wrong with the title?

The word has sometimes, in the past, been used as a term for people from Asia that was said to emphasize that they aren't "from around here".

It's never been really seen as a slur, but it does have connotations of being (at best) an outdated, slightly archaic term.

If there weren't separate versions of Oriental Adventures from two editions of D&D, the idea of using the term in modern D&D to describe a fantasy-Asia sourcebook would be unthinkable. While I don't see a big problem with using it, that's entirely on the legacy of the name, because without that context of it being a historic book of the game it would be a curious choice for a sourcebook at best.

 

[R_J_K75]

So I was poking around and looking for the connection between Oriental and Orientalism and did not ever realize they refer to the Middle East just as much as they do Asia. When I hear Oriental, I have never thought of Persia or Turkey, only Japan or China or other east Asian countries.

Same. I took an anthropology course in college about 15 years ago just cause it filled a requirement and fit into my schedule. I was very confused for the first couple classes when the Professor kept referring to places in middle east as the Orient. Something I had thought to mention very early in this thread but decided not to.