WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Reynard]

I think there is a lot of knee jerk defense based on nostalgia. Some folks in this thread should pull out their copy of OA and read through it with a critical eye. First of all, it isn't a very good book from a design perspective, and second it is a lot more stereotype and trope dependent than I think a lot of folks are remembering.

But more than that, it is evident from a few posters' comments that they feel entitled to this product even if they know it is offensive and harmful. And that's kind of gross.

 

[Bawylie]

Is the term “Oriental” offensive outside the USA/North America? Is a North American sensibility the proper one to apply here? Where North American mores conflict with European or Asian mores, how do we respectfully weigh all considerations? Does the location of the publisher matter? Does the physical location of most of the customers matter?

I see the original OA had a credit to a number of Japanese players who (it appears) playtested, critiqued, and improved the original work in the 80s. (This is the first I’ve seen of a type of proto-sensitivity/cultural consultant. That’s neat.) Does the inclusion and contribution of these playtesters and consultants cast the original work in a new light? A better light? A worse light? Are the Japanese playtesters from the 80s accountable for the sentiment and morality of their time or of today? If the original work was approached reverentially and in consultation with and respect for cultural sensitivities of the time, can it fairly be called racist by today’s standard? What more could have been done?

There’s an increase of cultural consultants, and sensitivity readers across all kinds of media today. I wonder whether, in 30 or 35 years, the media we create today will be given the benefit of the doubt. I hope that future readers will look on our stuff and say “It’s the product of its time. They did what they thought to be right based on the morals and sensitivities of the time. Some stuff didn’t age well, but that’s how it goes.” And I wonder whether we shouldn’t look at OA the same way. Whatever OA’s failings today, I think there ought to be some credit for the inclusion of cultural consult. That was very forward-thinking, it seems to me. And better than not doing it at all.

I don’t know. But if WOTC doesn’t want to put it on Drive-Thru or DMguild, then fine. It’s their barbecue, and they don’t have to serve what they don’t want to serve. Or I guess their garage sale - and if they don’t want to sell their old stack of magazines, they don’t have to. Something like that. I can’t fault them there. But I want to approach old media in a spirit of exploration and generosity and benefit of the doubt. Perhaps like an archaeologist or anthropologist. Not to excuse the inexcusable, but to understand things from the shoes of those who stood there, then.

Edit
Another question occurred to me. If you rewrote OA today, with cultural consultants and sensitivity readers, and you named it respectfully and treated the cultures and material with proper love and consideration - if you did all that and then a number of people of Asian descent still found that the work was offensive, what is the expectation?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think there is a lot of knee jerk defense based on nostalgia. Some folks in this thread should pull out their copy of OA and read through it with a critical eye. First of all, it isn't a very good book from a design perspective, and second it is a lot more stereotype and trope dependent than I think a lot of folks are remembering.

Weird. I have the hardbound copy; given that I often do deep dives into the history of OD&D and AD&D, I go through it often.

I'm guessing that your assumptions are wildly off the mark as to both the critics of the book, and those that are defending it. I could write something like, "Some folks are probably just bashing this on a few images provided to them by other people in a twitter feed," but that wouldn't be a fair assumption would it?

But more than that, it is evident from a few posters' comments that they feel entitled to this product even if they know it is offensive and harmful. And that's kind of gross.

What's kind of gross is people who are using this type of rhetoric to shut down other people. What's kind of gross is some people who feel entitled to control what is, and isn't, acceptable to know and read.

I will defend your right to criticize the book, and I will even join in that criticism, but your rhetoric is harmful and offensive in that it both presupposes your conclusions and demonizes anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[Derren]

There’s an increase of cultural consultants, and sensitivity readers across all kinds of media today. I wonder whether, in 30 or 35 years, the media we create today will be given the benefit of the doubt. I hope that future readers will look on our stuff and say “It’s the product of its time. They did what they thought to be right based on the morals and sensitivities of the time. Some stuff didn’t age well, but that’s how it goes.” And I wonder whether we shouldn’t look at OA the same way. Whatever OA’s failings today, I think there ought to be some credit for the inclusion of cultural consult. That was very forward-thinking, it seems to me. And better than not doing it at all.

Fun fact, when you hire a sensitivity reader he will find offensive stuff in your material. His employment depends on that.

 

[Umbran]

And I think that your assertions of how other people should feel and act is terribly ... not cool.

I made exactly zero assertions about how people should feel. I said that the world would not fall apart. A few incensed gamers are not "the world". You, personaly, are free to fall apart over this.

I went ahead and looked in my area, by the way. Unsurprisingly, it is not only not available locally, it's not available in the three closest major metro areas.

That sounds like something to take up with your library. Have you tried to request they get a copy? Have you considered donating one? It isnt' like they can read your mind to know you want a thing that nobody has likely ever asked for before now.

But hey- why should I matter to you, right? Isn't that kind of the issue- if you've never wanted to read it, why do you care if someone else can't?

Looks like the goalposts are moving. I was talking about maintaining history. Maintaining history is maintaining access of to the information for study as a cultural artifact, to be able to look at it as a product of its time for scholarly understanding. I am ot a historian, and do not need a historian's access, but I recognize that such should exist. But, you don't need a copy in every town for that.

You seem to instead be talking about maintaining mass access. This is an entirely different thing, and does not fit under the rubric of "Don't erase history!". So you dont get to push the "lost history" button on this one, sorry.

It remains that WotC is not not under any onus to maintain mass access to their works in perpetuity - no publisher is. Nor is maintaining historical archives for public access a thing they are obligated to do. It is, quite simply, not their job.

Maybe you should take up with GAMA, or maybe the GenCon organization, or PAX, that the world really needs a RPG Digital Lending Library, to maintain access to old, out of print works, and enhance access (and thus sales) to smaller, more independent works. Feel free to take the idea to them - even present it as your own - if you feel that strongly about the matter.

 

[Bawylie]

Fun fact, when you hire a sensitivity reader he will find offensive stuff in your material. His employment depends on that.

I don’t know. Maybe he doesn’t find anything because you didn’t write anything offensive but you’re glad you double-checked anyway. Might that be worth paying for just to be sure?

 

[Derren]

I don’t know. Maybe he doesn’t find anything because you didn’t write anything offensive but you’re glad you double-checked anyway. Might that be worth paying for just to be sure?

How often will you hire a sensitivity reader when he finds nothing? No, in order to ensure future employment he has to find something to show that you need sensitivity reader.

 

[ART!]

Fun fact, when you hire a sensitivity reader he will find offensive stuff in your material. His employment depends on that.

If course it's "he".

[EDIT: My use of "it" here refers to the quoted use of the pronoun "he". To rephrase my comment:

"Of course the pronoun used is "he"

I was not referring to the hypothetical sensitivity reader as "it" - as in "it's" or "it is", because that's just rude.]

 

[Voadam]

Faerun is actually a great example if you think about it critically. Faerun is supposed to be Europe, is there a difference between Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Silverymoon, Myth Drannor and Neverwinter? To my understanding yes, each one is a different culture and place.

Is that the case with Kara-Tur or Rokugan? I doubt it. I doubt they made that area and then divided the cultures up between the various regions like they did with Faerun and the European cultures. Instead, they are all mashed together and presented as a single culture. Which, is problematic.

You should probably look into that a little more then.

Kara Tur has multiple regions like Core Faerun, though not as many. They represent China and more than one period/style of Japan and then something else I forget. Wa, Shou, and whatever. That is one of the criticisms of Kara Tur, lazy China, Lazy Japan setting plopped down in D&D land.

OA 1e has what, five pages on the setting in the book, then there is a boxed set on the setting and multiple module/sourcebooks (seven I think?) fleshing out the various different regions.

Rokugan is a smaller Japanse style area depicting a sole Japanesish magical samurai land with a little bit of other asian but clearly strongly Japanese samurai themed core.

 

[Reynard]

What's kind of gross is some people who feel entitled to control what is, and isn't, acceptable to know and read.

Nope. But I think it's worth pointing out when things are offensive and inappropriate. Despite some hyperbolic postings earlier in the thread, no one is advocating for a book burning.

If you were defending the virulent racism in Howard or Lovecraft, I'd point that out too, even though those are two of the most influential genre writers of their age. OA isn't especially good or influential or culturally important. It isn't anywhere near the earliest RPG take on its subject, nor the best.