WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Bagpuss]

So, I think if someone wrote a story about say... blue-skinned native people needing to be rescued by a white guy, and other people responded "that is problematic, why did they need him to save them" I don't think replying "it is just a what if story, no offense meant" is fully sufficient.

Yeah and how badly did being "problematic" that affect Avatar's box off returns?

 

[MGibster]

A few things to keep in mind . . . both the terms "Asian" and "Asian American" are a bit problematic themselves as they lump a very broad and diverse group of people together under one label. How Japanese gamers feel about "Oriental Adventures" might be different than how Chinese gamers feel about it. I know we all realize this, but I still think it's an important reminder.

What exactly isn't problematic these days? When I last visited California I kept noticing little signs and placards in my hotel, in gas stations, and other areas with some variation of warning that fumes or materials used in the construction of the building were known to the state to cause cancer or other health complications. These little signs which I first found to be ubiquitous vanished from my sight within a few short days as they weren't especially helpful and I just assumed everything in the state of California causes cancer. Problematic is a label that's about as useful as those signs in California. If we all realize Asians as a classification includes a very broad group of diverse peoples then it's not very helpful to point out that Asian or Asian American is "problematic." In fact, let's just assume everything I like is problematic and simply label it when it's not problematic.

 

[Bagpuss]

Interesting they (Asians Read) are discussing some "orient" titles on DMGuild site (in episode 2), and a number of the titles they mentioned are now no longer available on there.

So even if they can't get to WotC yet seems they are already getting some stuff removed.

 

[Libramarian]

2. I think that just because Asian Americans have become a model minority doesn't mean their culture is up for appropriation. 'Positive' stereotypes such as "Asians are good at math" or "Jews are good with money" still lead to harmful discrimination. That should be obvious. It's still taking a look at some one and determining their story based on how they look or their heritage.

I don't find it obvious that positive stereotypes are harmful. IIRC the original 'stereotype threat' study found that priming Asian students with propaganda about Asians being inherently good at math improved their scores on a standardized math test.

Anyway I'm not calling for "open season" on any kind of cultural appropriation. I'm simply saying I don't agree that it's inappropriate to compare D&D's appropriation of Shaolin Monks, Oni, terracotta Hobgoblins etc. to Japanese anime's (often even sloppier and more absurdist) treatment of Catholic iconography and Gothic architecture etc. on the basis of the power dynamics being different. I might suggest that those who do are actually attracted to the implicit exaggeration of white American superiority.

Oriental Adventures was deeply problematic not solely in that it was claiming to represent Japan (at a time when Japan had far less cultural power, and far more negative stereotypes/racism directed against it than it now does in the West), but in that by titling itself "Oriental Adventures", it was claiming to represent the entire "Orient", and even if we took that only to mean East Asia, that's a pretty awful thing to just essentially write over with "Fantasy Japan".

Agree that "Oriental Adventures" is not a great title for a work mostly based on the history and mythology of Japan.

The thing is, it's not even difficult to deal with charges of cultural appropriation. Simply get people from those cultures involved (including in leadership). It's not like they're hard to find. It's not like they lack talent. And just don't do gross things like suggest "Japan" is basically the whole of "The Orient".

Actually I think it would be pretty hard to find the right people to help write this book. There is a high probability WotC would find themselves choosing between say, a middle-aged white guy with a PhD in East Asian studies and RPG industry experience vs. a 23 year old Asian with a D&D blog and a couple modules on DMs Guild. I wouldn't want to have to make that choice. The best scenario would be to have the former help in a ghostwriting capacity, I guess.

 

[Chaosmancer]

At a certain point, this is madness. Almost no Chinese food that Americans eat on a regular basis is "Chinese" in the same way that the Mexican food that we eat isn't "Mexican." They are foods that have been adapted to our palates by immigrants over the years (it is more accurate to say that our Chinese food is really it's own thing, and our Mexican food is more accurately called "Tex-Mex" or some other variant).

You can get "authentic" food, but that's not par for the course. And, for example, if a black chef from New Orleans is making a Bulgogi and Hot Chicken Burrito in a Los Angeles food truck ... well, what is that? Mexican? Korean? Nashville? Something else?

How is it that we've acknowledged the wondrous fusion of cultures in so many areas, yet we can't see that these arbitrary barriers can also prevent it? Eh, it's complicated, I know.

Yes, it is complicated. That is the point.

I love my local Chinese Food restaurant, but I know they are not serving "authentic chinese food" so I'm not really going to get upset if someone points out that it isn't authentic chinese food. But, I would also correct people who told me it was authentic chinese food (unless it was the owners of the place telling me) because they are wrong.

At what point does "the wider hobby" emerge, though?

To switch it up: if Mystara was a big deal in the US but merely a fringe setting in Italy would you still claim it only had fringe status "in regards to D&D"? If no, that's a very US-centric viewpoint; and the hobby is much bigger than just the US.

That Mystara's a big deal anywhere is worth noting - and, in this case, celebrating! EDIT to add: celebrating not due to any potentially-offensive themes etc. but due to it being what's left of Arneson's setting, and due to my being a Mystara fan.

I can agree with this. I'm glad when settings have a big following.

Yeah and how badly did being "problematic" that affect Avatar's box off returns?

Oh, it was widely successful.

Still hasn't gotten that sequel made though, did it?

I don't find it obvious that positive stereotypes are harmful. IIRC the original 'stereotype threat' study found that priming Asian students with propaganda about Asians being inherently good at math improved their scores on a standardized math test.

And how much of that was because of anxiety and increased studiousness out of fear of being seen as not upholding that high standard?

High test scores aren't the only way to measure impact.

 

[Bagpuss]

Still hasn't gotten that sequel made though, did it?

Yeah because who wants to see the depressing sequel where the white guys (I mean humans) come back with bigger weapons and wipe out the natives to take their resources... because we all know that's what is going to happen.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Yeah because who wants to see the depressing sequel where the white guys (I mean humans) come back with bigger weapons and wipe out the natives to take their resources... because we all know that's what is going to happen.

The Avatar sequel is resuming filming as we comment here. And he still plans for three more sequels after that one, I think.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Yeah and how badly did being "problematic" that affect Avatar's box off returns?

There's a lot more white people than Native Americans in America... just because most white folks weren't didn't see the "white savior" narrative doesn't mean there wasn't one.

P.S. It was also a decade ago and I saw it as a kid, didn't think about it much after.

 

[MGibster]

There's a lot more white people than Native Americans in America... just because most white folks weren't didn't see the "white savior" narrative doesn't mean there wasn't one.

P.S. It was also a decade ago and I saw it as a kid, didn't think about it much after.

Would Avatar had been more acceptable if the main protagonist wasn't white?

 

[GreyLord]

If anyone has the Complete Fighter's Handbook - please look up the Samurai Fighter Kit.
Does anyone have an objection to how that was written?

EDIT: Surely that is a stereotype, I'm just not sure it is bad.

Yes, it's the same with the Samurai and Ninja in Paizo's books.

Although some may view it as not hitting the same issues, the fact that it separates culture so distinctly from the class and name, for some, speaks of whitewashing. It separates that culture and significance of the titles and words from what they mean and their origins.

Not all would share this view, and not all share this view. However, whitewashing in that regards is actually worse than what OA did in using it's title.