D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Panda-s1]

It won't be easy, but perhaps a project that picks up where WotC has failed might just be what brings the needed change. After all, without Pathfinder, we'd all still be playing 4e...

uh, I'm pretty sure without 4e no one would be playing Pathfinder (I know this is a complete non-sequitor in this thread, but c'mon....)

 

[Remathilis]

uh, I'm pretty sure without 4e no one would be playing Pathfinder (I know this is a complete non-sequitor in this thread, but c'mon....)

Correct. Pathfinder exploited a dissatisfaction in the D&D community, and it's success was catalyst to WotC starting the Next playtest. Paizo was eating WotC's lunch, so WotC went back to the drawing board.

If similar dissatisfaction exists with D&D's portrayal of certain social issues, maybe it will happen again.

 

[Eltab]

OP:
You need not be embarrassed. Thank you for speaking from your heart.

As to being frightened? I'm writing from the bottom of Page 1 and I already see folks preparing to cast Fireballs at each other (and maybe you). I understand your trepidation and reluctance. But you still are right to speak.

 

[Sacrosanct]

look, if East Asian people aren't a hive mind (and clearly we're not) you can still do better than taking a neutral stance and letting the status quo continue. you can educate yourself about Asian American history (especially the history of the mid to late 20th century) and maybe you can understand why you shouldn't just take a neutral stance because this one Asian person thought it was okay.

I quoted myself from the other day in order to clarify and avoid assumptions or confusion. But I suppose that only works if you actually read the quote. If your takeaway is that I am taking a neutral/passive stance, then you clearly didn't read what I said. Again:

My position is that clearly enough Asians do find it offensive, and have given compelling arguments, that it's a term we shouldn't use. I, as a white man, should try to respect that, even if many Asians aren't offended. And we can move on.

Also, I didn't base that quote solely on the writer of that article, but on the posts of at least one other Asian person in that thread. Your argument is essentially listen to you about how Asians are impacted and/or feel, and not Asians who disagree with you. I'm not Asian. I don't live an Asian's life or have their experiences. That's why I try to hear what Asians are saying, and when there are conflicting opinions, I hope you can see how that causes confusion to someone who isn't Asian. Why should I give you more credibility than someone else who is also Asian but has a different opinion? Are you more Asian than them, that your opinion matters more and theirs should be discarded? Speaking for me, as a general rule, whenever someone relies on a stereotype for the basis of their argument, I don't give it much weight. Especially when that stereotype is used to dismiss anyone who disagrees.

I stand by my earlier quote. Clearly there has been enough people of Asian heritage who have voiced concerns over OA that it should be taken seriously and I have no issue refraining from using that term and treating it as a pejorative (advocating for that change is not a neutral stance that supports keeping the status quo). But that doesn't mean that any other Asian who disagrees with you just doesn't know any better, or can't help it because their culture told them to grin and bear it, which has been inferred in this and/or the other thread. That seems....rather arrogant.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I’m just saying “not everybody agrees with this” is not an argument, much less a refutation of my assertion. If you want to argue my point, go ahead. If you want to point to arguments you have made against it elsewhere, go ahead. But simply saying “not everyone agrees” doesn’t add anything to the conversation.

There isn't a lot to refute, you just made an assertion, and my point was it wasn't settled (and that it is a discussion that has been had before, with some people falling on your side, some people taking the position I have). The points made in favor of your position are on the kinds of threads I have mentioned (as are the points in favor of my view on this). Again, this isn't a discussion I am terribly interested in revisiting because it is so contentious. I just wanted to point out, the statement wasn't something that I think most people regard as a settled fact in the gaming community. I don't think I need to list out a set of proofs in order to make that kind of statement.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

Correct. Pathfinder exploited a dissatisfaction in the D&D community, and it's success was catalyst to WotC starting the Next playtest. Paizo was eating WotC's lunch, so WotC went back to the drawing board.

If similar dissatisfaction exists with D&D's portrayal of certain social issues, maybe it will happen again.

The dissatisfaction you mentioned was the switch to 4e. If WoTC switches to a 6e along the lines of what some people have been advocating for, then there is a chance that enough customers will be dissatisfied and stick with 5e. I certainly would give the newer edition a try, but I have no shortage of older material to run if I do not like it.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think Pathfinder proves you wrong. (Though to be fair, while I'm not familiar with 2e, I know 1e suffers a lot of the sins of it's father). There could be a market for the kind of D&D that is free of the legacy of 5+ editions of bad tropes and that doesn't have an audience of Grognards fighting for status quo.

It won't be easy, but perhaps a project that picks up where WotC has failed might just be what brings the needed change. After all, without Pathfinder, we'd all still be playing 4e...

But Pathfinder carved out its niche on the premise of being more D&D than the current edition of D&D at the time. If anything, Pathfinder shows us that D&D’s identity is about more than just the brand name, and evoking that identity is a powerful tool in the RPG market. D&D is still synonymous with tabletop RPG in most people’s minds. I would rather address the issues with the industry frontrunner and make it the example other RPGs follow than try to catch lightning in a bottle with yet another fantasy heartbreaker.

 

[Charlaquin]

There isn't a lot to refute, you just made an assertion, and my point was it wasn't settled (and that it is a discussion that has been had before, with some people falling on your side, some people taking the position I have). The points made in favor of your position are on the kinds of threads I have mentioned (as are the points in favor of my view on this). Again, this isn't a discussion I am terribly interested in revisiting because it is so contentious. I just wanted to point out, the statement wasn't something that I think most people regard as a settled fact in the gaming community. I don't think I need to list out a set of proofs in order to make that kind of statement.

Why should it matter if it’s “a settled fact in the gaming community” or not? Lots of things aren’t settled facts in the gaming community, merely pointing this out does nothing to further the conversation.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why should it matter if it’s “a settled fact in the gaming community” or not? Lots of things aren’t settled facts in the gaming community, merely pointing this out does nothing to further the conversation.

I don't think it is worth us continuing this line of debate in this thread. Like I said, it isn't a topic I am particularly investing time or emotions in since I've already weighed in plenty on it. I just made an observation about your post, you don't have to agree with it. I thought it was relevant and useful to point out.

 

[Panda-s1]

I quoted myself from the other day in order to clarify and avoid assumptions or confusion. But I suppose that only works if you actually read the quote. If your takeaway is that I am taking a neutral/passive stance, then you clearly didn't read what I said. Again:



Also, I didn't base that quote solely on the writer of that article, but on the posts of at least one other Asian person in that thread. Your argument is essentially listen to you about how Asians are impacted and/or feel, and not Asians who disagree with you. I'm not Asian. I don't live an Asian's life or have their experiences. That's why I try to hear what Asians are saying, and when there are conflicting opinions, I hope you can see how that causes confusion to someone who isn't Asian. Why should I give you more credibility than someone else who is also Asian but has a different opinion? Are you more Asian than them, that your opinion matters more and theirs should be discarded? Speaking for me, as a general rule, whenever someone relies on a stereotype for the basis of their argument, I don't give it much weight. Especially when that stereotype is used to dismiss anyone who disagrees.

I mean for starters I'm only half Asian (lol) and yes this does cause problems between me an others whose heritage are fully Asian. also when I bring up a stereotype I'm not saying "some Asian people are actually like this and therefore they're wrong" I'm saying there's a large issue Asian America that might explain why we don't see the same reaction we might expect if say someone called out an old D&D book that reinforced stereotypes about Africans.

I stand by my earlier quote. Clearly there has been enough people of Asian heritage who have voiced concerns over OA that it should be taken seriously and I have no issue refraining from using that term and treating it as a pejorative (advocating for that change is not a neutral stance that supports keeping the status quo). But that doesn't mean that any other Asian who disagrees with you just doesn't know any better, or can't help it because their culture told them to grin and bear it, which has been inferred in this and/or the other thread. That seems....rather arrogant.

it's not "arrogant". if someone who was born and raised in the US said "America is equal and there's no racial problems" it's not arrogant for someone to call them out on their bs. you can be of an oppressed minority and still be complicit or even active in said oppression, which is kind of an issue at the core of Asian American racism.

if you're willing to read other points of view I ask you to read this article about the model minority stereotype:

Asian Americans Are Still Caught in the Trap of the ‘Model Minority’ Stereotype. And It Creates Inequality for All

Asian Americans have embraced a country that passed a law to keep them out

time.com

the author is Vietnamese American and talks about how not all Asian Americans get equal opportunities and why they might not always identify with those who call out anti-Asian racism.