D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Panda-s1]

I understand it isn’t authentic or historically accurate. But if you want to a pastiche campaign inspired by a variety of Asian martial arts and swordplay genres, with a bit of western media inspired by Asian cinema thrown in (which I occasionally don’t mind playing) it can fit. Not Everything to be focused, accurate, or historical. I play more authentic settings as well. But I am saying this does offer a flavor peoplemay want in some 1E campaigns. Perhaps other posters don’t like that style, that is totally fine. But shouldn’t each of us be able to decide if we want to make use of OA or not for ourselves?

okay but even in the context of not having an accurate setting there are still probably better supplements. OA is 35 years old, not only have there been more wuxia and martial arts films to have come out since then, there's also a lot of older movies you can watch now that weren't readily available in the west back in the 80's.

it's like my issue with ninjas in western vs. Japanese movies, I much rather play the magical jutsu based ninja you see in Japanese media today than the sneaky boring ones in old action movies, and I don't even like Naruto.

 

[Bedrockgames]

okay but even in the context of not having an accurate setting there are still probably better supplements. OA is 35 years old, not only have there been more wuxia and martial arts films to have come out since then, there's also a lot of older movies you can watch now that weren't readily available in the west back in the 80's.

it's like my issue with ninjas in western vs. Japanese movies, I much rather play the magical jutsu based ninja you see in Japanese media today than the sneaky boring ones in old action movies, and I don't even like Naruto.

And it is perfectly fine if this is what you want. But I don't have to want what you want. This is all about preference. That produces a very different ought here. Both authentic Japanese media and western media act was inspired by Japan can be useful and interesting. Yes, I usually would want game content modeled after Japanese media (or modeled after the culture in question). But if I am feeling like doing a ninja craze inspired campaign (based on not just Japanese movies but the american ninja craze and chinese ninja craze films---say Revenge of the Ninja, Prey for Death, or even Five Element Ninja) then OA isn't a bad choice at all. Like I said. Authentic is a perfectly valid approach, it is my preferred approach. But it isn't the only valid approach. And there can be value in playing an older RPG, even if your interest is just seeing how these things evolved over time and how they played.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sure, but "adding to a living genre" presupposes that one is an insider within the living genre. Thus the one is intimate with it, and knows what one is talking about.

Do you have to be? To make a game? I don't know that I want that to be the bar. I think there should be a place for people who are insiders. But I think people who are new to a genre and excited about it should feel free to contribute to. Otherwise I think we risk becoming a bit elitist about it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sure, but if a setting doesnt want to use genre/tropes/culture in an accurate way, then it does well to avoid any reallife names like "Wuxia". The game is asking for problems concerning appropriation and misrepresentation. At the very least, the setting must avoid linking the stolen tropes to offensive parts of game.

• Dont borrow what one doesnt understand.
• Dont describe a reallife cultural term in a way that is false.

Why? Why can't you borrow bits of culture, regardless of how well you understand them? I mean there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Why does fictional media or games have a responsibility to be accurate to culture. One of the things that makes art interesting, and makes it something that can go beyond cultural boundaries, is that people can take inspiration from anything. I think this new taboo around appropriation is extremely misguided, however well intentioned. People get things wrong about culture all the time. Sometimes that produces terrible art, sometimes it produces new and interesting art. I think the problem really is people expecting anthropology, religion and history lessons from game books. Some game books will be about providing accurate information, and if that is the case, obviously they should strive for accuracy. But if I am playing a game loosely inspired by some legend, I am not expecting everything in there to 100% reflect the source material (even if it using similar names).

 

[Haldrik]

Do you have to be? To make a game? I don't know that I want that to be the bar. I think there should be a place for people who are insiders. But I think people who are new to a genre and excited about it should feel free to contribute to. Otherwise I think we risk becoming a bit elitist about it.

To make a game for your own gaming group around your dining table? Who is going to know?

For a corporation to publish a game, or even a fan-fic group that goes viral? Yes, it matters.

Other peoples cultures matter. One might take ones own culture for granted, but it too matters.

 

[Bedrockgames]

To make a game for your own gaming group around your dining table? Who is going to know?

For a corporation to publish a game, or even a fan-fic group that goes viral? Yes, it matters.

Other peoples cultures matter. One might take ones own culture for granted, but it too matters.

I am talking about both. I am not saying culture doesn't matter, but I don't think people can own culture. It should be allowed to freely move from place to place, and I don't think it is wise for artists, game designers and writers to embrace a world view that restricts it in this way. Again, I just don't find this healthy for how humans ought to be interacting with one another and how we ought to be making art. I think this is just creating a taboo that stifles art, and stifles real honest interaction between different cultures. I'd much rather see fewer walls in this world than more

 

[Haldrik]

I'd much rather see fewer walls in this world than more

If there are no boundaries, then there is no diversity.

Culture does belong to someone else if it isnt ones own culture. Borrowing from it can be sensitive.

For example, if a movie has a gay character, and the character falls in love and has a happy ending, then the movie is telling me, my identity, that I have a right to have good life. If a movie has a gay character as a main character, then the movie is recognizing me, my identity, my heroism. If a movie has a gay character, then kills that character, then the movie is killing me, my identity. If a movie has a gay character, and treats the character in a humiliating way, then the movie is humiliating me, my identity. Expect a response.

How is it any different, if a movie has a Japanese character, and the character is ridiculous?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Culture does belong to someone else if it isnt ones own culture. Borrowing from it can be sensitive.

For example, if a movie has a gay character, then kills that character, then the movie is killing me, my identity. If a movie has a gay character, and treats the character in a humiliating way, then the movie is humiliating me, my identity. Expect a response.

How is this it any different, if a movie has a Japanese character, and the character is ridiculous?

But we don't own our culture. We live in our culture, we participate it in it. But we can't insist other people don't borrow from our culture. Should someone who is Italian be able to tell you how to portray pasta in your game. If you wanted to make a game about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, should you worry about how italian cuisine has been appropriated into the concept? It is a bit of a ridiculous example, but I do think it helps illustrate the point I am trying to make.

Because in both these cases the character being humiliated and the character being ridiculous can be incidental to their identity. Or it may be important to the kind of story being told for these things to happen to these characters. I am not saying things are never offensive, or you don't have a right to take offense. But I do think we all have a right to interpret these things differently and artists have a right to tackle material whether they are part of a culture or belong to an identity themselves (in fact I think it is important for them to do so). These things can be sensitive. But not everyone from all groups react the same to them. There are movies that trod crudely on aspects of my identity, but I don't take issue with it. I like to assess these things individually to determine what the intention was. If someone is deliberately being insulting to a particular group that is one thing. But I think it is also a mistake to insist that certain people only be portrayed a particular way (or that certain things can't happen to these characters---like humiliation). These are stories and bad things happen to characters sometimes. Sometimes ridiculous characters are more interesting than non-ridiculous ones. They are not necessary a commentary on the identity groups the characters fit into

However, I think this is also quite separate form the idea of borrowing cultural tropes.

 

[Haldrik]

But we don't own our culture. We live in our culture, we participate it in it. But we can't insist other people don't borrow from our culture. Should someone who is Italian be able to tell you how to portray pasta in your game. If you wanted to make a game about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, should you worry about how italian cuisine has been appropriated into the concept? It is a bit of a ridiculous example, but I do think it helps illustrate the point I am trying to make.

Because in both these cases the character being humiliated and the character being ridiculous can be incidental to their identity. Or it may be important to the kind of story being told for these things to happen to these characters. I am not saying things are never offensive, or you don't have a right to take offense. But I do think we all have a right to interpret these things differently and artists have a right to tackle material whether they are part of a culture or belong to an identity themselves (in fact I think it is important for them to do so). These things can be sensitive. But not everyone from all groups react the same to them. There are movies that trod crudely on aspects of my identity, but I don't take issue with it. I like to assess these things individually to determine what the intention was. If someone is deliberately being insulting to a particular group that is one thing. But I think it is also a mistake to insist that certain people only be portrayed a particular way (or that certain things can't happen to these characters---like humiliation). These are stories and bad things happen to characters sometimes. Sometimes ridiculous characters are more interesting than non-ridiculous ones. They are not necessary a commentary on the identity groups the characters fit into

However, I think this is also quite separate form the idea of borrowing cultural tropes.

Consider humor.

A person can use a joke to deepen friendship and intimacy, and welcome. A person can use the same joke to bully and harm, and alienate.

The person who is at the expense of the joke, can sense the intent of the joke.




To "play" with someone elses identity NEVER disconnects from that reallife human.

If a gonzo gamer forgets the reallife persons, harm happens.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"it was about what people thought the Orient was like from popular culture [i.e. Western Culture] not necessarily what it actually is."

So, it's at least up front about the usage of stereotypes.

A new book about, say, Kara-Tur, could easily be possible if done right. It's not that the idea is bad (representation is good); but the execution done in 1985 is simply not good. Which, ok: it was 1985. But once we know better, we're required to do better.

And your example of Warrior Nun shows that you (and the others like you) are STILL not getting it: Warrior Nun is something I watch passively. OA is an instruction manual on how to pretend to be (fantasy) Asian, with the idea that people will actually do so. A how-to manual for non-Asians about how to pretend to be Asian, written by white people is problematic at best. Yeah, for fiction, authors can go outside their lived experience. An instructional manual (which is what OA is)? No. Needs more than the one playgroup that @Panda-s1 found out about. If it wants to be on the up-and-up, that is.

Having said that, you really don't seem to be engaging honestly*; no one said writers (general) should be limited to certain subjects. No one said "that roleplayers not be allowed to play different characters. " Honest to God, these strawmen are exhausting, used to 'score points', and generally deflect from an issue where actual people have actual concerns over how they are being portrayed.

*or, it's something else, something worse.

It’s fine to ID something you perceive as a straw man. It is not OK to imply or directly accuse someone of dishonesty (or worse) for using one.

PLEASE, everyone, if you must, attack the argument or post, not the poster.