WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Sadras]

I am curious, since I have not read the book. What is the problem with OA? I have read most of this thread, and other stuff, but haven't found anything beyond the word oriental.

Looking up "oriental" I can see it means somebody form the far east, and is now "considered offensive when used to describe a person" (Webster)

Ok, so there's that. But sure there must be more to it?

It boils down to 3 words: Oriental, Exotic and Mysticism.
The latter two are used as words from a Eurocentric lens when describing the Far East (exotic used for anything non-white).
You can check out his video-series on youtube for the rest of his complaints - which, to be honest, are silly IMO with some complaints arising from a lack of knowledge about earlier editions.

 

[TerraDave]

So I waded through a large part of the thread.

Is the actual book discussed anywhere? I don't mean the meta discussion, and all the accusations hurled back and forth, but the actual content of the book?

Its a good book. Its sitting right next to me. I don't know if many posters here have ever looked at it. Maybe 1 or 2?

 

[prosfilaes]

Because slippery slopes are an actual thing, with many instances throughout history. "Here, have Sudetenland!"

Open the door to one thing, and you make everything fair game.

If they let Oriental Adventures continue being published, then the next book they may be pure Yellow Peril. Slippery slopes are an actual thing, right?

Is the actual book discussed anywhere? I don't mean the meta discussion, and all the accusations hurled back and forth, but the actual content of the book?

Its a good book. Its sitting right next to me. I don't know if many posters here have ever looked at it. Maybe 1 or 2?

It's been discussed a bit. Why would you assume that that only a few of us have ever looked at it? A good number of us have been playing since 1st Ed and have at least glanced at all the basic books.

 

[BigZebra]

It boils down to 3 words: Oriental, Exotic and Mysticism.
The latter two are used as words from a Eurocentric lens when describing the Far East (exotic used for anything non-white).
You can check out his video-series on youtube for the rest of his complaints - which, to be honest, are silly IMO with some complaints arising from a lack of knowledge about earlier editions.

Ok. Thanks for the cliff notes
It doesn't make this whole thing less confusing for me. It seems there is very little discussion of the actual content here, and instead a lot of abstract discussion. That's fine I guess, but what about arguing for the books removal based on its actual content, instead of whether some people are offended. Where is that discussion?

58 page, and almost no discussion of the book's content.

 

[BigZebra]

So I waded through a large part of the thread.

Is the actual book discussed anywhere? I don't mean the meta discussion, and all the accusations hurled back and forth, but the actual content of the book?

Its a good book. Its sitting right next to me. I don't know if many posters here have ever looked at it. Maybe 1 or 2?

Could not agree more. 58 pages, and almost no mentioning of what is so bad in this book. Talk about much ado about nothing.

 

[Sadras]

Could not agree more. 58 pages, and almost no mentioning of what is so bad in this book. Talk about much ado about nothing.

1) The issue of Comeliness (not knowing that the concept was first introduced in UA), in that Westerners fetishize Asians hence the Comeliness stat for fantasy Asians.
2) Chop Sticks in the Weapons List meanwhile this wuxia is a common trope in some Asian anime.
3) How fantasy Samurai are all required to have a minimum stat of 14 in Wisdom - not all Samurai were wise. Again the stat requirements was very much on par with 1e's Paladins, Rangers...etc
4) Issue with the Honour system - why do fantasy Easterners have an Honour system, while Paladins/Knights who follow oaths do not - ignoring the heavy restrictions placed on the Paladin class re wealth ...etc also the fact that it was a later project, so new ideas came through.
5) Rice being the common diet for all fantasy Asians.
6) Mish-mash of Asian cultures - ignoring that this was/is D&D - mixing all knights, all barbarians, all clerics...etc

That is what I have gleaned from the little I have watched and from this and other threads.

 

[BigZebra]

1) The issue of Comeliness (not knowing that the concept was first introduced in UA), in that Westerners fetishize Asians hence the Comeliness stat.
2) Chop Sticks in the Weapons List meanwhile this wuxia is a common trope in some Asian anime.
3) How Samurai are all required to have a minimum stat of 14 in Wisdom - not all Samurai were wise. Again the stat requirements was very much on par with 1e's Paladins, Rangers...etc
4) Issue with the Honour system - why do Easterners have an Honour system, while Paladins/Knights who follow oaths do not - ignoring the heavy restrictions placed on the Paladin class re wealth ...etc also the fact that it was a later project, so new ideas came through.
5) Rice being the common diet for all Asians.
6) Mish-mash of Asian cultures - ignoring that this was/is D&D - mixing all knights, all barbarians, all clerics...etc

That is what I have gleaned from the little I have watched and from this and other threads.

Thanks for the list.

Honestly don't understand this outrage. Guess they haven't watched a Jackie Chan movie.
The book seems more like something that came out of love. Love for Japan and the other Asian countries. Written in a different time.

The dudes behind that YouTube video, could just as easily have been a bit more constructive. Instead of starting some performative Internet outrage (hey anything for likes and view count, right), they could have been like "This is silly? Chopsticks? That's a bit too much. Would be awesome with a new and fresh take on this. What do you say Wotc?"

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I disclaimer or apology note is right, but I warn in a few years we could find with complains against Lovecraft because he was racist, or far-west moviest where the native indians are the antagonists....or movie of pirates where the Spanish empire are the bad guys. Umberto Eco's "the name of the rose" with a previous disclaimer, and that if there is luck. Lots of Netflix productions could be censured. Why not a disclaimer for the books of "7th Sea" what talk about the Vatican church?

You can't defend the freedom if you try to fix all with new rules, prohibitions and regulations, because you don't trust the free citizen to do the right actions when you explain the reasons.

Racism is wrong, here everybody agrees about this, but if we really want a better world then we have to defend the respect of the human dignity, the base of our citizens as people. We have to take care with the right strategy because if other feel there is a try to manipulate emotionally throught the feelings of guilty and shame, the effects may be totally counterproductive. We need more empathy, dimplomacy and other social skills.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Correcting me on Mr. Kwan's position has nothing at all to do to the point that I have not seen a single poster on ENWorld say "we should ban this book". Unless Mr. Kwan has been posting on ENWorld and I somehow missed it.

A few posters might have suggested that WoTC stop selling the book, which is different from banning it, even if it has the same overall effect. But that suggestion has been few and far between, and seems to mainly be them taking issue with the fact that WoTC is profiting from the book.

So, again. Has there been a single post on ENWorld stating "We should ban this book."? That is what you are arguing against, that is what you fear, but is it a position that is being taken by anyone in this thread?

You have repeatedly been wrong on your demands, starting by not knowing what Mr., Kwan's position is. In the multiple threads, there are numerous people in this forum that I have engaged with (including some that like your post but I have now ignored, and those that use "laughs" to mock people) that demand that OA (and other material) not be made available in any form, for sale or for free, and that the only copies that be allowed are the ones that are already in people's physical possession (the "library" theory).

If you wish to say that the ability to regulate material such that it can not be distributed or sold, but must remain in a few scattered libraries, or even not that- it can only be part of a historical research product (call this the "We are the Vatican, we can keep a copy of this book, but not you") is not a call for a "ban" then fine. I completely disagree, but you can continue to argue this completely pedantic point with someone else as to whether keeping one copy of a book available somewhere is a ban or not.

Please do not respond to me on this or make further demands. Given the amount of times I have had to explain my position to people that want to "ban" the book from my P.O.V. as I have repeatedly explained, I am not enjoying your repeated posts saying, "All that stuff you've been arguing against, it's not really happening." I've had enough gaslighting in my life already. Thanks.

 

[Panda-s1]

Honestly don't understand this outrage. Guess they haven't watched a Jackie Chan movie.
The book seems more like something that came out of love. Love for Japan and the other Asian countries. Written in a different time.

oh believe me, I've watched and enjoyed a lot of Jackie Chan movies....