There are levels of censorship. It doesn't have to be Fahrenheit 451 to be of concern. The concern has both an element of principle and an element of practicality. They meet in the open exchange of ideas. Any degree of censorship is a statement that "these ideas shouldn't be exchanged."
Suggesting that WotC remove a product from availability is essentially saying, "I find this offensive, so therefore I don't want anyone having access to it, or the company to profit from their IP." The logical response to such a position is, "You have every right to find it offensive, but no right to mandate what others have access to. If you don't want that company to profit, don't give them your money."
The problem WotC faces is if they give into this complaint, what else will they have to give into? How many other products contain material that someone finds offensive, for whatever reason?
I would think that the solution is obvious (even if their motive is solely for the sake of PR): keep legacy products available but with a disclaimer, adjust new printings of the current edition, and try better in the future.
Oh, wait, that's what they're doing.
Two things
1) I was talking about Banning books. As you said, there are levels of censorship. Banning is one level and the level I do not think that is practical to reach.
2) If "removing from availability" is censorship and should be prevented, then we have a big problem. Because there are many many many things being censored. There are many products and books that are no longer sold or easily available. I can't access most of Marvel and DCs legacy works. Or EC comics. The work of Eclipse comics or Wildstorm comics?
Or, what about old videogames? I remember the Xenosaga game I got was amazing, but in trying to get the second one in the series, I found out I needed to buy it on the second hand market for over $500. Many times I've been watching youtube videos about very famous series from Nintendoe and hearing them say that such and such game "was never released to the US". Is that not censorship then, if Japan never pushed to spend the money to make those games constantly available?
And, if this is all censorship, do we have a moral duty to track down the copyright holders of these works and demand they start making them available for sale? No matter the cost or burden to themselves?
To me, this is the issue. You can't reasonably expect every company to always sell every product they ever made. When demand drops below a certain point, then you have to have the option of cutting that product. And, there is no reason to believe that that action is censorship. And Kwan was asking for them to stop selling a 35 year old product, a product that most companies would not be selling do to the incredibly low demand
1) The issue of Comeliness (not knowing that the concept was first introduced in UA), in that Westerners fetishize Asians hence the Comeliness stat for fantasy Asians.
2) Chop Sticks in the Weapons List meanwhile this wuxia is a common trope in some Asian anime.
3) How fantasy Samurai are all required to have a minimum stat of 14 in Wisdom - not all Samurai were wise. Again the stat requirements was very much on par with 1e's Paladins, Rangers...etc
4) Issue with the Honour system - why do fantasy Easterners have an Honour system, while Paladins/Knights who follow oaths do not - ignoring the heavy restrictions placed on the Paladin class re wealth ...etc also the fact that it was a later project, so new ideas came through.
5) Rice being the common diet for all fantasy Asians.
6) Mish-mash of Asian cultures - ignoring that this was/is D&D - mixing all knights, all barbarians, all clerics...etc
That is what I have gleaned from the little I have watched and from this and other threads.
I so appreciate how you mixed these arguments together, saying how we ignored responses to the clearly bad ones while letting the ridiculous ones stand on their own.
@rohdester The issues with Rice, Comeliness and Chop sticks were some of Kwan's arguments and issues not those of anyone on this thread. Same with the Samurai wisdom.
Part of them have been addressed. For example, while it is a trope to use improvised weapons in a fight. Such as, say, a barstool. they have never been listed on the weapon table (to my knowledge) which the chopsticks were. It is equivalent of opening a book on Fantasy Irish DnD and seeing "Beer Mug" on the listed weapons or an American Biker DnD and seeing Pool Cues. Sure, it is a trope that you pick up and fight with whatever you have on hand. But, that is what the improvised weapons rules are for. Improvising weapons.
The issue with honor is actually a lot deeper and systemic beyond OA and even DnD. Yes, Paladins had oaths and restrictions on their morality. However, Paladins were not knights, they were very specifically Holy Knights of the Religion, based off a very specific set of people. Actual European knights would include things like, the cavalier or the fighter. In fact, the Cavalier is a much closer analogue to the Knight, and their only restrictions were on which weapons were deemed dishonorable (from what I can tell).
However, in the Fantasy settings for Japan and China and other countries where these systems are
always introduced (even in 5e, it was called out for Kara-Tur and has an Asian inspired art next to it) there are massive social restrictions placed on all members of society. A peasant thief can lose honor for the same reasons a noble samurai of the court could. Additionally, Samurai were quite famous for a variety of weapons, but are only depicted or sometimes by the rules explicitly expected, to wield Katanas. Which would be the equivalent of saying European knights only ever used the longsword and nothing else.
And, as to the mish-mash, while yes, DnD often paints with a broad stroke, much of that is connected to other aspects. For example, while the hydra is clearly a greek monster, the Greek works were spread liberally around the world, and such stories circulated around the entirety of western audiences. and, we can easily identify that Hydras are from greek myth, because we know Greek Myths intimately. But, I doubt many posters would be able to accurately place the origins of the Kumiho or the Kaichi.
And this is the problem. If you are specifically pulling from every source over there, and combining them and mixing them with no thought or mention to the public, the public's own ignorance in the cultures being presented will wash that entire section of the globe in a beige hue. Everything would be "oriental" and nothing would be from the specific people whom it came from.
I'll also grab the "exotic" and "mystical" bits to reiterate that if you are running a game set in that section of the world, why do you need to call it exotic? We don't go around talking about how Dungeon of the Mad Mage was set in the "exoctic city of Watderdeep, where many mystical secrets lurk in the alleys, waiting to ensnare the unwary" despite the fact that for some people in Faerun, it is exotic and since "mystical" means "magical" every DnD city in every game is "mystical". Kara-Tur cities are no more magical that Sword Coast or Cormyr. They all have magic bursting from every seam, so why do we need to make this setting "different" from the others?
What do you find so problematic about the books so they need to be removed?
Since I wrote the above before seeing this question, I want to reiterate, again since it seems people keep missing it. I do not think the book has to be removed. The disclaimer is fine for me, my bigger concern is WoTC taking care to avoid these mistakes in a future product.
Now, like I said at the top of my post, I do not believe that not having a product for sale is the same as banning it, because I find the idea that companies have a moral duty to constantly reproduce everything they ever made silly. And if WoTC still wants to sell this PDF of a 1e rulebook, fine, I guess.
But, I do find there to be an issue in people trying to claim that there is nothing possibly offensive about the work, and that this is all "mock outrage" to get fame and so Kwan can make money on youtube.
