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WotC Older D&D Books on DMs Guild Now Have A Disclaimer

If you go to any of the older WotC products on the Dungeon Master's Guild, they now have a new disclaimer very similar to that currently found at the start of Looney Tunes cartoons. We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice...

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If you go to any of the older WotC products on the Dungeon Master's Guild, they now have a new disclaimer very similar to that currently found at the start of Looney Tunes cartoons.

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We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.


The wording is very similar to that found at the start of Looney Tunes cartoons.

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Edit: Wizards has put out a statement on Twitter (click through to the full thread)

 

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Instead, the pejorative depictions of Jews were done to resemble the monsters, for obvious reasons: to make people fear and hate Jews. This is true of every pejorative depiction of other ethnicities, from Africans to Japanese in WWII art. Exaggerated features to make them seem less than human. Does that mean every depiction of a goblin or orc or bugbear or kobold is based on those depictions? Of course not. That's silly. Just like it's silly to argue that the reason people don't like goblins is because they represent Jews. Monsters weren't meant to represent Jews, Jews were meant to represent monsters. Therefore, you can't argue with any authority that goblins are pejorative depictions of Jews because it's literally the other way around.

Citation massively needed. Really multiple, detailed citations. This is a wild claim and definitely not as plainly true as you claim it is. There's some truth in it for sure, but unless you can find some god-tier citations, it's not the hard fact you're claiming. The big problem you're going to face is that many of these creatures didn't even have specific or consistent appearances. The idea that goblins were some sort of solid, consistent concept in the past is fundamentally false.

More to the point, though D&D's goblins don't really fit with the tropes described. They're not typically large-nosed, for starters. That's a pretty aberrant illustration that had to be cherry-picked.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
OK, fine. ALL Orcs, Drow, etc are not irredeemably monstrous & in need of killing.
Just all of the ones I, as the DM, am going to throw in your path. Don't fret, you'll have good reason to kill them.

You say this as though it is a joke, but legitimately, this is all I think is really required.

The fact of the matter is the "orc children" or "goblin children" or "dragon egg" scenarios get discussed because DMs put their players in that situation. I've got no problem with all orcs I encounter being violent raiders, as long as I'm not put in a situation where I would logically doubt they are violent raiders.

Along with a meta-level acknowledgement that, well, good Orcs and orc tribes can exist. They might live "over there" and we never encounter them, but as long as we know it isn't ALL orcs, but just the orcs near us, then that is fine for over 50% of the problem.


Which they applied to all of the product. So yes, they're effectively calling every single thing created before 5th edition "Wrong". The key word would only work if it was applied to material which had some depiction of something that had a clear problem, like early Looney Toons, where almost no one would even try to argue that it wasn't clearly a problem.

They chose to apply it to everything, and that insinuates that all of it is wrong. To put it another way, you won't find a warning label "Product may contain nuts" in food that doesn't contain nuts, nor will you find a warning label about electrocution hazard on a product that doesn't use electricity. Warning labels aren't applied to things that don't have what the label is warning you about.

TSR contracts didn't involve royalties IIRC, and I'm pretty sure WOTC's don't either. It's very likely that WOTC not only slapped a label declaring their work to be wrong on it, but they probably aren't even making a dime off it.

Um, no.

First of all, I have seen many packages containing no nuts that contain the warning "Made in a factory which processes peanut oil" or other such variations. Not because the product itself contains nuts, but because it was made in the same factory, and some people are allergic enough that an accidental transfer could be problematic for them.

What WoTC disclaimer says is that some of the products contain depictions of racial, ethnic or culture prejudice that was common back in the day. This could be anything from an picture of drow with a specific style of haircut, to a specific cultural setting.

Those depictions are wrong, and not just wrong today, they were wrong back then too.


Does every work contain these? No.
Does every depiction of race, culture or ethnicity have prejudice? No.
But some do, and some of them are, and this is an acknowledgement of that fact.

Edit: You seem to have partially responded to this idea by saying that the analogy doesn't work because Peanuts can kill you, but stereotypes can't. My response falls under a different category altogether. I do not believe their needs to be a risk of hospitalization or death for there to be a need for warning labels.


You have it backwards. What you're doing is a version of the classic fallacy "dogs have four legs. Animals have four legs. Therefore, all animals are dogs."

I.e, since the dawn of time, human culture has depicted scary monsters as humanoids with exaggerated features to make them seem more scary. Eyes, noses, ears, fingers, arms, legs, etc. All human but misshapen. That doesn't mean they were depicted like that to disparage Jews. They existed before most of these cultures even knew who Jews were.

Instead, the pejorative depictions of Jews were done to resemble the monsters, for obvious reasons: to make people fear and hate Jews. This is true of every pejorative depiction of other ethnicities, from Africans to Japanese in WWII art. Exaggerated features to make them seem less than human. Does that mean every depiction of a goblin or orc or bugbear or kobold is based on those depictions? Of course not. That's silly. Just like it's silly to argue that the reason people don't like goblins is because they represent Jews. Monsters weren't meant to represent Jews, Jews were meant to represent monsters. Therefore, you can't argue with any authority that goblins are pejorative depictions of Jews because it's literally the other way around.

Also, there is plenty of evidence of games where Germans (or other religions or nationalities in wargames) are considered inherently evil and no one has expressed as adversity killing them as has people gotten upset about treating orcs and goblins as inherently evil. To say there is no evidence of what I suggested means you have no idea of gaming or games in general. I stand by my observation. More people have gotten more upset about the killing of fictional monsters than they do in games where real people are treated the same: inherently bad who need to he destroyed.

My suspicion about you not knowing about gaming history is doubled when you seriously argue that goblins in games and literature have never captured people and put them in prisons where they torture and kill them. That's a pretty common trope among monstrous humanoids. And appears over and over in just D&D alone. That, along with keeping people for food (which to my knowledge Nazi Germany never did)

I agree there is some backwards work, but you have to remember that the Jewish people (who I believe are ethnically the Hebrew people as well) have been around for a long long time. Judaism can be traced back to the Bronze age trivially. So, it is equally possible that the monsters were morphed by the stereotypes as it was the stereotypes morphed by the monsters. Both things could be true, though I am more willing to believe the monsters came first, since the stereotype for the Jewish people and money came about mostly because of banking and usury laws, which were fairly late in the game of myths.


But, I think you are also missing a rather clear point Sacrosanct. While, yes, propaganda went very fair in trying to make every German a Nazi, that was still never true. There were germans who helped the allies, many of the people fleeing were german, and by the time of WWII German's had immigrated around the world.

We tried to make all german's or all japanese the enemy, and that led to horrific consequences. Same as it has in the modern era with depictions of our enemies in the Middle East. However, except for the most egregious examples (which were mostly for the japanese) they have made sure to characterize is very careful. All Germans are part of the Nazi party, All Nazis are evil. A two step process. But, with fantasy races, they skipped the idealogical step. All Goblins are Evil. All Chromatic Dragons are evil.

And, this immediately causes problems. Let us say that the party finds a Black Dragon Egg. That dragon is evil. It has not even been born, has not taken it's first breath of air, and it is evil. It is capable of thought, choice, and emotion, but that is overridden by the fact that it is already evil before it was born.

On this very forum, in a discussion about necromancy, it was put forth to me that bringing an evil creature into the world is an evil act. Including if an evil creature like a goblin gave birth to another goblin. That is an evil act, because it brings more evil into the world.

No one has ever said that a person, even a german, was born a Nazi. But, goblins are. And that is the issue that gets pushback. Being born fundamentally evil.
 

Zarithar

Adventurer
Controversy aside - I would really love to see an official sourcebook on Kara-Tur or Al-Qadim with writing done by folks who are connected to the cultures and mythologies which are being used as inspiration for the setting. I am aware that OA 1st edition was primarily Japanese mythology, and was aware of it at the time. My statement about cultural mashup is based on complaints I've seen leveled against it. When I look at the book now, and I have very recently, I can definitely see the issues - which start with the cover of the book and continue throughout. I do not believe that the designers/writers had bad intentions going into it though, and were in fact trying to provide an alternative to the Western European influences that dominated fantasy RPGs at the time. Interestingly, if you read the credits, there were a group of Japanese playtesters who were involved with the product, though I am not sure how much influence they had on it. OA is definitely a flawed product, but it was released without malice - I firmly believe that.
 
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VelvetViolet

Adventurer
At a very basic level, there will always be a tension between the following two positions:

C'eci n'est pas une pipe.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I use that as a shorthand to describe the difference between meta-textuality and overreading. In one example, you have the pretty basic issue of something that demonstrably is not what it is (which forces you to consider the meaning and the metatext); in the other, an admonition and warning that over-reading is always possible (in other words, sometimes a person wants a cigar not because of an oral fixation, or because of the resemblance to male genitalia, but because they want a cigar).

More simply, you can always look to find meaning; that a person reads, say, Tolstoy and decides that the farming within it is actually a metaphor for WW2 and the Holocaust given the indiscriminate harvesting of plants would not necessarily mean that the person's reading is wrong to them, as they take their own personal meaning out of the work. But from a more general point of view, this could also be "over-reading" the work as it is unlikely that Tolstoy was a time-traveler (or could predict the future) and that this specific, and anachronistic, material was within the work.

Put more simply, we need to be careful to not overread and find things that we want to be in the material.

Just my two cents .

Yes we should, but I don't think that's what's happening here.

You have it backwards. What you're doing is a version of the classic fallacy "dogs have four legs. Animals have four legs. Therefore, all animals are dogs."

I.e, since the dawn of time, human culture has depicted scary monsters as humanoids with exaggerated features to make them seem more scary. Eyes, noses, ears, fingers, arms, legs, etc. All human but misshapen. That doesn't mean they were depicted like that to disparage Jews. They existed before most of these cultures even knew who Jews were.

Instead, the pejorative depictions of Jews were done to resemble the monsters, for obvious reasons: to make people fear and hate Jews. This is true of every pejorative depiction of other ethnicities, from Africans to Japanese in WWII art. Exaggerated features to make them seem less than human. Does that mean every depiction of a goblin or orc or bugbear or kobold is based on those depictions? Of course not. That's silly. Just like it's silly to argue that the reason people don't like goblins is because they represent Jews. Monsters weren't meant to represent Jews, Jews were meant to represent monsters. Therefore, you can't argue with any authority that goblins are pejorative depictions of Jews because it's literally the other way around.
There is a big leap between fairy tales and the modern fantasy genre.

In fairy tales, "goblins" (I use the term in quotes because every culture has a different name for them, often multiple names) are extremely diverse and range from helpful to hostile. Disney's Sleeping Beauty, Spiderwick Chronicles, Jim Henson's Labyrinth, LEGO Elves, The Princess and the Goblin, etc.

In Harry Potter, they closely resemble anti-semitic stereotypes (although I doubt this was intentional). Compare with the ferengi in Star Trek or volus in Mass Effect.

In Goblin Slayer, they are rapists (who only target women, natch) created by a sadistic D&D gamer that present a constant existential threat to humanity and must be exterminated for the greater good.

Also, there is plenty of evidence of games where Germans (or other religions or nationalities in wargames) are considered inherently evil and no one has expressed as adversity killing them as has people gotten upset about treating orcs and goblins as inherently evil. To say there is no evidence of what I suggested means you have no idea of gaming or games in general. I stand by my observation. More people have gotten more upset about the killing of fictional monsters than they do in games where real people are treated the same: inherently bad who need to he destroyed.
You are the one making these claims in the first place. The burden of proof is on you, not me. If you are saying that I'm ignorant, then that is a very big reason to doubt your claims.

To say "nobody has expressed dislike for endorsing fictional genocide of real groups" is clearly wrong. I can name a pretty obvious counter example: certain novels by a Mr. Tom Kratman depict the genocide of muslims as morally good, and there are numerous people criticizing his writing as racist.

My suspicion about you not knowing about gaming history is doubled when you seriously argue that goblins in games and literature have never captured people and put them in prisons where they torture and kill them. That's a pretty common trope among monstrous humanoids. And appears over and over in just D&D alone. That, along with keeping people for food (which to my knowledge Nazi Germany never did)
That's a common trope for dark fiction in general. It's is hardly unique to non-humans. It describes every stereotypical dungeon. It describes all tribal warfare throughout human history. There are even cannibal tribes, although "cannibal" might be inaccurate to apply to non-humans.

I asked, quite specifically, for evidence of goblins running industrial death camps like the nazis did. What the nazis did was set new standards for atrocity in human history (that we know of). You have provided no evidence beyond edgelord platitudes like "worse than nazis" that trivialize the nazis' real crimes.
 

whimsychris123

Adventurer
OA is definitely a flawed product, but it was released with malice - I firmly believe that.
I'm assuming you mean "without malice."

One of the issues people have with critical theory is that it's not about the intentions of the author or behavior, but its effect in the world and people's experience of a speech, a work of art or some behavior. One may not intend racism, but if people experience it as racism, it is.

In my personal view, I think our behaviors have unintended consequences, but it's still up to us to adjust our behavior accordingly, not because someone is dictating such changes but out of a desire to help others feel welcome and equal. I believe in practicality rather than theory. I don't know if orcs or goblins or even drow are inherently racist, but if others experience it as such and it makes them uncomfortable, changes should be made.
 


Mercurius

Legend
ROFL having an opinion about a dreadful book which was intentionally designed to be provocative and was extremely lame is "gatekeeping" now? Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on. So, no, it ain't. You may wish it was, but a book that's designed to troll like that, and it absolutely, consciously, openly was designed to troll, is fair game for criticism, and I'm entitled to take a dim view of people who financially support such trolling.

You can do whatever you want. And I have no problem with you criticizing the book - but you're insulting the actual people. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. Calling people who buy and use the book "losers" is not inclusive. Consider that some of those people could be members of this forum.
 

whimsychris123

Adventurer
I would really love to see an official sourcebook on Kara-Tur or Al-Qadim with writing done by folks who are connected to the cultures and mythologies which are being used as inspiration for the setting.
Also, This is why I love Paizo's Lost Omens setting, particularly the 2nd edition. It feels like they've really taken into consideration how they portray certain lands and had a variety of voices to help create these lands, many of which have been inspired by Arab and African cultures. I don't know if they plan on producing something for Tian Xia, their Asian-inspired setting, for 2nd edition, nor do I know much about their 1st edition treatment.

I'm not a big fan of the Pathfinder game, either edition. I stick to D&D, but I love the Pathfinder setting and try to visit there as often as I can in my own games.
 
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There is also Tolkien's response to a potential German publisher asking him about his ancestry (which contains some glorious shade-throwing):

"Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

That being said, Tolkien's depiction of dwarves, despite it being an on-the-whole positive and heroic one, still contains stereotypes that are representative of antisemitic caricatures. Now, was this an intentional act of racism? No, not in the way of, say, Lovecraft's virulent racism. This is the kind of stuff that's been baked into our culture for generations, that we are trying to dismantle with things like these disclaimers and discussions. I love Tolkien's works probably more than any other author, but that doesn't mean I can't still be critical of things. Same goes for D&D. I can love my 1e orange spine collection fiercely and still critique it.

In a BBC radio interview with Dennis Gueroult, recorded in 1964 and broadcast the next year, Tolkien connected his Dwarves with the Jewish people, stating: “The Dwarves of course are quite obviously—wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” Also in 1964, Tolkien wrote to W.R. Matthews: “The language of the Dwarves . . . is Semitic in cast, leaning phonetically to Hebrew (as suits the Dwarvish character).” Indeed the dwarven tongue Khuzdul has a phonology and a triconsonantal root system that resemble Hebrew
 
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