D&D General D&D Settings with No Problematic Areas?

[Shardstone]

Of course not, and I think you know this. I think such jokes are inappropriate in a public workplace. I'm saying jokes should be considered within context. If it is between friends and out of ear's range, none of our business. If it is a comedy club, all bets are off, and it is down to "vote with your dollar" (e.g. if you don't like Chappelle, Burr, etc, don't buy a ticket).

This is the same logic that actual racists use to get spew their hate. It doesn't matter if you and your friends are just "joking," these "jokes" are giving people the perfect excuse to say what they say. And they keep saying and it gets worse and worse and people just say "its just a joke." I wish this was a slippery slope fallacy, but on Reddit, a lot of subs have been banned due to going through this exact cycle.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

This is the same logic that actual racists use to get spew their hate. It doesn't matter if you and your friends are just "joking," these "jokes" are giving people the perfect excuse to say what they say. And they keep saying and it gets worse and worse and people just say "its just a joke." I wish this was a slippery slope fallacy, but on Reddit, a lot of subs have been banned due to going through this exact cycle.

Yes, of course real racists and haters do that because those people have always been there, hiding their hate and doing things from the shadows. And at different times in the past and present, certain political climates make them feel safer talking out in public. But I also think when they are allowed to be more vocal and visible, it makes it seem like their numbers are getting worse, when they are probably not, it is just they are louder and more dangerous. And whether D&D changes, or other games companies change, or other companies change, none of it is more than a "feel good" fix, because the young are learning this from the older generations. People are not born to hate, they are taught. I think that is what WotC is going to try and show with the changes they plan on with the non-human races. They will no longer be born to hate/be evil. They will be just like humans and learn. And if they are treated like garbage, they will learn to hate.

 

[ChaosOS]

Yes, of course real racists and haters do that because those people have always been there, hiding their hate and doing things from the shadows. And at different times in the past and present, certain political climates make them feel safer talking out in public. But I also think when they are allowed to be more vocal and visible, it makes it seem like their numbers are getting worse, when they are probably not, it is just they are louder and more dangerous. And whether D&D changes, or other games companies change, or other companies change, none of it is more than a "feel good" fix, because the young are learning this from the older generations. People are not born to hate, they are taught. I think that is what WotC is going to try and show with the changes they plan on with the non-human races. They will no longer be born to hate/be evil. They will be just like humans and learn. And if they are treated like garbage, they will learn to hate.

Literal neo nazis weaponize "ironic racism" and other "racism but I'm not serious about it so don't hold me responsible" as a recruiting tactic. That's the teaching you're talking about - create an environment where it's unclear if someone "really believes" in the racist thing they said, then recruit the people who seem willing to accept the ideology (often because they need an Other to blame for their life struggles). So while it may seem that purging actually racist language from our discourse (In this case I'm referring to known problems like orientalism) is just a "feel good" fix, it's also a way to smoke out the nazis.

 

[Mercurius]

This is the same logic that actual racists use to get spew their hate. It doesn't matter if you and your friends are just "joking," these "jokes" are giving people the perfect excuse to say what they say. And they keep saying and it gets worse and worse and people just say "its just a joke." I wish this was a slippery slope fallacy, but on Reddit, a lot of subs have been banned due to going through this exact cycle.

What is the logic, exactly? That friends can joke with each other however they want? That comedians can joke in whatever way they want, and that we can decide whether we support their performance? Does allowing and accepting those freedoms enable racism? Would you have legislation pass that people cannot say certain things in private or performance?

 

[ChaosOS]

I think we're getting off course for this thread - I think a more productive direction would be focusing figuring out which areas have problems but are salvageable vs. areas that should probably just be forgotten.

 

[Mercurius]

I think we're getting off course for this thread - I think a more productive direction would be focusing figuring out which areas have problems but are salvageable vs. areas that should probably just be forgotten.

You're going to find that there's too wide a range of perspectives, and differences in base assumptions of what is and is not "problematic." I'm not saying the discussion shouldn't be had, and I appreciate your intention to be productive. Just that...well, look at the forum for the last few weeks.

My view is that nothing needs to be changed...in the past. Let the past stand, learn from it, and design forward. Try to avoid obvious hotspots, but don't neuter the creative juices of designers or alter past presentations. New versions of old settings can be modified, although with the coherence of the setting in mind.

I've also suggested that WotC more clearly differentiate core products with a more general treatment from the worlds that offer variations on the theme. This defuses the notion that specific settings are "problematic," because they're only presenting one version of the tropes.

 

[ChaosOS]

Yeah with regards to fixing things this is a "Could you do Kara-Tur 5e, but respectful this time? Or should you just ditch Kara Tur for an asian-inspired MTG setting like Tarkir". (Can do the same for other "non-western" areas of FR) I've brought up Eberron a number times already for what can be done there. I think there's also been good discussion for Ravenloft, which I think could reasonably be expanded to all horror rather than just gothic horror, since Gothic Horror is a distinctly western subgenre.

 

[Mercurius]

Yeah with regards to fixing things this is a "Could you do Kara-Tur 5e, but respectful this time? Or should you just ditch Kara Tur for an asian-inspired MTG setting like Tarkir". (Can do the same for other "non-western" areas of FR) I've brought up Eberron a number times already for what can be done there. I think there's also been good discussion for Ravenloft, which I think could reasonably be expanded to all horror rather than just gothic horror, since Gothic Horror is a distinctly western subgenre.

I think you're on the right track. I personally wouldn't do 5E Kara-Tur, but instead go with Tarkir or something new. I mean, maybe they should conract Daniel Kwan to assemble a team. Move forward, don't erase or negate or alter the past (WotC has it right in the disclaimer, imo).

I think some legacy settings could be re-vamped with very little damage done: Dark Sun and Planescape come to mind.

As far as the Realms goes, I'd probably leave areas outside of Faerun untouched.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Yeah with regards to fixing things this is a "Could you do Kara-Tur 5e, but respectful this time? Or should you just ditch Kara Tur for an asian-inspired MTG setting like Tarkir". (Can do the same for other "non-western" areas of FR) I've brought up Eberron a number times already for what can be done there. I think there's also been good discussion for Ravenloft, which I think could reasonably be expanded to all horror rather than just gothic horror, since Gothic Horror is a distinctly western subgenre.

Yes, as much as a lot of older gamers look back on Kara-tur or Maztica or al-Qadim with fondness through rose-colored glasses that obscure the problematic parts, I think all those regions should be left alone and not updated for 5E, or a future 6E. Either do more MtG settings that are similar in flavor and theme or maybe even, however unlikely, a brand-new world. But they were obviously up to something before all this stuff blew up. They did not need a bunch of cultural consultants and sensitivity readers just for Theros alone or to adjust the PC monster races. Whether we will still get what they had planned, or it is just delayed, only WotC knows. Actually, back when the Tabaxi were updated to 5E, I was sure that meant something to do with Maztica would be coming out eventually. Maybe they can still do something with that, as of those three regions I mentioned, Maztica would be the least hazardous to update. Plus, unlike the other two, is there even a MtG setting with a similar theme?

 

[ChaosOS]

I'm not totally sure if Daniel Kwan is the best person to handle that, even if he's the most visible - feels to me like there's some other Asian creators who could use the spotlight better.

Honestly Dark Sun 4e basically stands as is - they did a lot of work with the edition update & handling the changes the metaplot brought to make it a highly functional setting. I even liked the introduction of the world axis mythology into the setting!

If you want MTG South/Central America, I'd actually really like to see Ixalan as a full setting since it already explicitly incorporates a lot of D&D tropes and was one of the better plane shifts. Yes there'd be some mechanical challenges, especially in the race department, to make things fit, but it's certainly easier than Dark Sun which also has a divergent from PHB race list but also has other things it requires (like psionics)