WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Bagpuss]

However, there were still some trapfalls of historical pastiche - for example, Sôhei and Yakuza basically do not belong in the same game.

Too be fare there a loads of things in traditional D&D that aren't of historically contemporary periods. I think that one should be fine.

 

[TheSword]

I think the bigger question is what happens going forward. What does this debate lead to for WOC or third party publishers. Who has a moral authority to publish a 5e campaign setting set in an asian setting.

Can WOC or another ‘western’ publisher do it. Can they only do it if vetted by a cultural consultant. What if they have a diverse writing team? What if a western company had all these things can they then release products that draw on the frankly fascinating history, myths and legends of East Asia.

it seems to me that unsurprisingly we are on a journey with these products. Some of the issues raised by Kwan and others were acknowledged in the later edition which in turn would have its own issues revised and acknowledged in future incarnations. Just as art in the 5e players handbook acknowledges diversity lacking in earlier editions. The introduction to 3e oriental adventures opens with the phrase...

“...The mysterious and exotic Orient, land of spices and warlords, has at last opened her gates to the West.”
Sixteen years ago those words started the back cover text for another book called Oriental Adventures. Since then, the world has changed—we rarely refer to the countries of Asia as “the mysterious Orient,” for one thing—and the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game has changed...”

and closes with...

Mystery, shmystery. Fantasy Asia is no more or less exotic and mysterious than any other fantasy. But if your tastes in fantasy run to honorable samurai, tattooed monks, shadowy ninja, shapeshifting animals, spirit-talker shamans, sword- swinging wizards who can run up trees, serpentine dragons, hopping vampires, blood sorcerers, and iaijutsu duels . . . well, you should find enough in here to fill you up.
For many years to come, we hope.

It would be a shame I think if some of these things were lost to players of the new edition and the coming generation.

 

[Hussar]

Too be fare there a loads of things in traditional D&D that aren't of historically contemporary periods. I think that one should be fine.

Heh, we haven't really touched on that have we. I mean, most of the "Oriental Adventures" stuff is drawn from Edo era Japan. We're talking 16th, 17th century (and well into the 19th century). The Katana that they show, for example, is far too advanced for the time period D&D usually works with. America had fought it's war of Independence at about the same time they were making katanas like that.

Even the whole "Social class" samurai thing is fairly anachronistic. The whole "drinking tea ceremonies and art and whatnot" Samurai class is, again, way later. At the time that Japan was just figuring out that being a single country might be a good idea, the Chinese were sailing around the world.

It does tend to skew the setting somewhat when you're jamming all these different time periods together. Not that D&D is great about it's history, but, at least it's fairly close.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It does tend to skew the setting somewhat when you're jamming all these different time periods together. Not that D&D is great about it's history, but, at least it's fairly close.

Neither D&D nor OA are historically accurate. But that isn't the point of either, and in a game, there is nothing wrong with anachronisms (especially if the game is based on movies or books that are more historical romance, or settings that pack different historical periods together). Historical accuracy is fine if that is the goal. I hope we are not entering a period in gaming where historical accuracy is required of people (D&D settings are nothing like the middle ages they are inspired by----and they often span a vast range of historical periods in terms of what historical elements are there).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I was simply pointing out that "get Asian people to write it" is hardly a surefire way to make sure that something is accepted.

I think that the international production of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (Asian* cast, Asian director, Asian language, based on an Asian novel, screenplay adapted by 2/3 Asian writers) that went on to popularize Asian cinema, and won countless awards and was a massive box office hit ....

Pretty sure that's not the best example to use for something not being accepted. I don't think that Chow Yun-Fat, or Michelle Yeoh, or Ang Lee thinks that this was a poor choice, or wasn't accepted.

Just my two cents.

*I am using the generic version so that I don't make any mistakes; given the political valence of, inter alia, Taiwan, Mainland China, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc., I'm going to be very cautious!

 

[Wulfhelm]

Too be fare there a loads of things in traditional D&D that aren't of historically contemporary periods. I think that one should be fine.

Sure, but in that sentence I was talking about FGU's Bushido, which had a bit more of a connection to actual Japan going on.

 

[Wulfhelm]

America had fought it's war of Independence at about the same time they were making katanas like that.

Errr... no. Definitely not. The illustration in OA is extremely basic anyway, but even on a more detailed one I doubt you could distinguish a Shinshintô from a Shintô or even most Kotô (I certainly could not.) Especially since the most visible changes over the centuries preceding the late 18th century concern the fittings of swords (which can be changed), not the blades.

At the time that Japan was just figuring out that being a single country might be a good idea, the Chinese were sailing around the world.

I think I see now what your problem is. You're not miffed OA was too Japanese. You're miffed it was, in your mind, pro-Japanese.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Pretty sure that's not the best example to use for something not being accepted. I don't think that Chow Yun-Fat, or Michelle Yeoh, or Ang Lee thinks that this was a poor choice, or wasn't accepted.

And both Michelle Yeoh and Chow Yun-Fat are amazing at what they do. Anyone who hasn't seen it, should watch a movie like A Better Tomorrow, with Choy Yun-Fat. He is an incredible actor. And Michelle Yeoh was unbelievable in movies like Wing Chun, Police Story 3, and Yes, Madame. She did many of her own stunts and her physical performances are terrific.

 

[Danzauker]

Agreed. Though I have criticized a number of the anti-ban arguments, my own position is more akin to yours. Make it available with a disclaimer and let the proceeds go to a relevant charity.

I think it's something we all agree here. We may have different positions on the effectiveness of the disclaimer things, and other aspects of the issue at large. But can we give that for granted by now.

 

[Wulfhelm]

3e oriental adventures [...] closes with...
Mystery, shmystery. Fantasy Asia is no more or less exotic and mysterious than any other fantasy. But if your tastes in fantasy run to honorable samurai, tattooed monks, shadowy ninja, shapeshifting animals, spirit-talker shamans, sword- swinging wizards who can run up trees, serpentine dragons, hopping vampires, blood sorcerers, and iaijutsu duels . . . well, you should find enough in here to fill you up.
For many years to come, we hope.

I dunno. I prefer the wide-eyed naive enthusiasm of the 80s over the faux-enlightened smug pretentiousness of L5R/OA 3e. Especially considering that they really had no claim of having done anything better, and in fact did a lot of things worse. Yeah, yeah... with the old "Rokugan is not Japan! That means even though we gratuitously plaster our work with Japanese concepts and names, you cannot complain if they are hilariously wrong! In Rokuganese 'Heimin' actually does mean 'Half-people', you see!"

No thanks. But still, L5R/Rokugan always seem to get a pass. Even from the "Asians represent" podcasters - who, if they were being honest, would read L5R's first edition, which contains teeth-grinding cringe galore, for a better comparison with OA.