WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Bagpuss]

Sure, but in that sentence I was talking about FGU's Bushido, which had a bit more of a connection to actual Japan going on.

Yeah but I think even there you are restricting creativity with the setting the authors might want to try and enforce an unrealistic standard for what is an RPG game not an historical text book.

 

[Hussar]

Errr... no. Definitely not. The illustration in OA is extremely basic anyway, but even on a more detailed one I doubt you could distinguish a Shinshintô from a Shintô or even most Kotô (I certainly could not.) Especially since the most visible changes over the centuries preceding the late 18th century concern the fittings of swords (which can be changed), not the blades.


I think I see now what your problem is. You're not miffed OA was too Japanese. You're miffed it was, in your mind, pro-Japanese.

No, I'm miffed that they are pretending that Japan is the only culture of note and everything else gets shunted to the background if mentioned at all.

Like I said, if D&D was written with all the names and mythology in French and everything else was an after thought, people would lose their frigging minds. But, apparently, it's okay to do that in Asian cultures.

 

[Hussar]

I think that the international production of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (Asian* cast, Asian director, Asian language, based on an Asian novel, screenplay adapted by 2/3 Asian writers) that went on to popularize Asian cinema, and won countless awards and was a massive box office hit ....

Pretty sure that's not the best example to use for something not being accepted. I don't think that Chow Yun-Fat, or Michelle Yeoh, or Ang Lee thinks that this was a poor choice, or wasn't accepted.

Just my two cents.

*I am using the generic version so that I don't make any mistakes; given the political valence of, inter alia, Taiwan, Mainland China, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc., I'm going to be very cautious!

Oh, without a doubt, it was well regarded in the West. No question about it. OTOH, over here? It was barely even noticed. Heck, if the Americans hadn't made such a big deal about it, it likely wouldn't have even been noticed as much as it was.

 

[Hussar]

Neither D&D nor OA are historically accurate. But that isn't the point of either, and in a game, there is nothing wrong with anachronisms (especially if the game is based on movies or books that are more historical romance, or settings that pack different historical periods together). Historical accuracy is fine if that is the goal. I hope we are not entering a period in gaming where historical accuracy is required of people (D&D settings are nothing like the middle ages they are inspired by----and they often span a vast range of historical periods in terms of what historical elements are there).

Totally agree here. Like I said, the anachronisms of the book aren't a big deal. It's the fact that it presents Asia as a single culture, ignoring all the other cultures.

 

[ART!]

Heh, we haven't really touched on that have we. I mean, most of the "Oriental Adventures" stuff is drawn from Edo era Japan. We're talking 16th, 17th century (and well into the 19th century). The Katana that they show, for example, is far too advanced for the time period D&D usually works with. America had fought it's war of Independence at about the same time they were making katanas like that.

Even the whole "Social class" samurai thing is fairly anachronistic. The whole "drinking tea ceremonies and art and whatnot" Samurai class is, again, way later. At the time that Japan was just figuring out that being a single country might be a good idea, the Chinese were sailing around the world.

It does tend to skew the setting somewhat when you're jamming all these different time periods together. Not that D&D is great about it's history, but, at least it's fairly close.

Using material from less well-known, less popularized eras and subcultures of these regions would be a good way to get away from the stereotypes.

On a semi-side note: please, lord, give me the material for running a campaign based on one of those enormous Chinese sailing ships!

 

[Wulfhelm]

Yeah but I think even there you are restricting creativity with the setting the authors might want to try and enforce an unrealistic standard for what is an RPG game not an historical text book.

I'm not restricting anything. If I had that kind of power I'd do something else with it, like install cameras on all bike lanes and have people who intentionally smash bottles on these lanes punished by having rotten eggs thrown at them.

But generally, if you're designing a setting inspired by a historical period, you can and should absolutely deviate from history if you have good reasons. I just don't consider "Eh, couldn't be bothered to look too closely" a good reason.

 

[Mallus]

Not all cultural appropriation is bad. See huge library of Japanese video games.

See also, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Avatar: The Last Airbender.

(to cite two amazing works currently on US Netflix)

 

[Wulfhelm]

Using material from less well-known, less popularized eras and subcultures of these regions would be a good way to get away from the stereotypes.

Yes, but it would also be a good way to reduce your sales. I for one, would be fascinated by an "Onmyôji"-inspired game about ghost hunting in Heian Japan, but I can guarantee to you that the absence of Samurai, Ninja, tea, Zen Buddhism etc. would make it a hard sell.

 

[Wulfhelm]

See also, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Avatar: The Last Airbender.

(to cite two amazing works currently on US Netflix)

I live in fear of the day when someone is going to come for ATLA. Because you could absolutely start gunning for it with the same kind of phony argument that has been voiced in the current debate.

 

[Maxperson]

Umm, you realize the "Korobukuru" and "Hengeyokai" are Japanese words right? Bush, Shukenja, Yakuza, Kensai (literally sword saint) Sohei and yakuza are, again, all Japanese words. The equipment section is nearly 100% Japanese - the armor even uses the Japanese names for the parts of the armour.

Like I said, they pretend that Japanese is the only culture that matters.

I'm pretty sure Bush was American, but the rest I'll give you.