WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[TheSword]

Of course the forums

It's all of that. The "core components" including classes, races, monsters, regional write-ups . . . . it's all based on poor research, bad stereotypes, systemic Western racism, cultural appropriation . . . none of it's good. It's almost funny watching some of the podcast episodes where Asian American gamers are asked to find the positives in Oriental Adventures . . . they struggle to do so (but do find a few things).

No, I appreciate that’s why Asian Americans don’t like it. However, as I understand it we have already agreed that these stereotypes exist in Japanese and to a lesser extent Chinese and Korean media. This is not just a case of westerners having a exotic, mystical and eroticised version of the west.

The point I was making was... is this a bad thing if the writing team has significant East Asian representation.

Not all cultural appropriation is bad. See huge library of Japanese video games.

 

[Wulfhelm]

I get the idea they're vaguely supposed to be a catch-all for figures like Kaguya or half dragons the like, sort of less 'elves' and more 'half-elves'. But their whole lack of any big flavour like that is one of the reason I'd probably look at ditching them

Now that you mention it, yeah I guess it makes sense that the Kaguyahime legend was at least an inspiration for "Bamboo Spirit Folk", and the story of Urashima Taro could have been a similar inspiration for "Sea Spirit Folk". But it's really flimsy, as you say, and the vagueness of concept combined with the oddly specific half-human status and hierarchy, does not really work back towards those inspirations either.

 

[TheSword]

Umm, it's not a "various" set of sources. It's one source. Japan. Virtually the entire book presents Japan as the only extent culture in Asia. That's where the notion of cultural appropriation comes in. You have American writers presenting a work that is meant to be representative of a wide range of cultures (the Orient) that is, in actuality, only representative of one culture, relegating all other cultures to the background or not even mentioning them at all.

It's no different than white writers trying to write a story about Aboriginal history by pretending that all Aborigines are Maori. It's tone deaf at the very least.

So if a role playing product didn’t pass itself off as a sourcebook for all East Asian adventures then it is more acceptable?

It is a little bit different than a book about Maori culture. Japan is the 4th richest country in the world not an oppressed nation struggling to maintain its identity in the face of a system and years of historical abuse. A book that misrepresents Maori could be bad cultural appropriation.

 

[Imaculata]

So when do we start burning the physical books?

I don't think these sort of comparisons help the discussion.

 

[TheSword]

Good write-up on the topic by Jester_David on his 5MWD blog:

On Oriental Adventures

On Oriental Adventures A recent conversation has emerged on Twitter and YouTube over the 1st Edition Dungeons & Dragons product Oriental Adventures, written by Gary Gygax and David “Zeb” Cook back in 1985. In addition to the dated and offensive […] <a class="more-link"...

www.5mwd.com

It’s a good summary. Very balanced with some good suggestions.

 

[Hussar]

So if a role playing product didn’t pass itself off as a sourcebook for all East Asian adventures then it is more acceptable?

It is a little bit different than a book about Maori culture. Japan is the 4th richest country in the world not an oppressed nation struggling to maintain its identity in the face of a system and years of historical abuse. A book that misrepresents Maori could be bad cultural appropriation.

Well, it would largely help one of the larger issues. There are several d20 and other system games based in fantasy Japan. Which is perfectly fine. There's nothing particularly wrong with that. It's passing Fantasy Japan off as the only Asian culture out there and pretty much completely ignoring the rest where it becomes far more problematic.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Here everybody agrees about racism is wrong, don't we? And most of us could agree it may have been a blunder, causing unintented offense.

A good merchant knows a client may be wrong but he can't take the opposite but to be more subtile and diplomatic. If OA caused any offense unintetionally then a disclaimer and an apology note should be enough. But if somebody demmands to be censure, how if he believed to be an authority to force us to obey his rules, I don't trust him. What if I think then it's a disproportionate measure and maybe also an authority abuse. And it could set a dangerous precedent, not only against Western authors, but also against Japanase mangaka who wanted to use Chinese culture as source of inspiration. (let's remember the famous Dragon Ball is a radical mash-up of "Journey to the West, and Son Goku an ersatz of the monkey king Sun Wukong).

You can't report as racism anything only has been accidental rudeness, and today some people are complain about productions from years ago, for example the sitcom "Friends". This was very liberal in its time, but not it's not enough pollitically correct.

Is Kara-Tur a "chop-suey", a mixture of different cultures? maybe, but D&D players also do the same with the Western cultures. Is Japanese influence too strong in the "xuanhuan" D&D? maybe, but because we are used to anime and manga from years ago, they are more creatives, publish a lot of titles, creating new mythology/lore and they aren't limited by the censure as in China. Isn't a right potrayal of the rest of Asian nations? Maybe, but that also is happening with the European countries. Most of D&D mythology is based in the folklore of North and West Europe with some pieces of classic Grecoroman myths, but Spain and the rest of Latin-speaker and Mediterranean Sea coast countries also have got a rich mythogy about faes what could be added to D&D. Do stand in line because you aren't the first to arrive here. Can't English-speakers enjoy classic folcloric fairy tales from German or French origin (Grimm brothers or Perrault) because it would be cultural apropiation? Hans Christian Andersen was Danish, and the famous Pinocho by an Italian author. Can't you read works by the French Jules Verne and Alexander Dumas, or Italian Emilio Salgari.

Of course we should ask advice, but even consultants from the same country could contradict each other, or players from the same family arguing. There is a serious risk not only some 3PPs but also DM and players showing in the game their own predjudices against their neighbours, or compatriots from different regions, althought they themself didn't notice.

Do you say it's wrong because it's cultural apropiation? I say it's right because my people is very cosmopolitan and we accept the cultural miscegenation. If I use the expression "to bury the hatchet" ( = make peace, reconcile) from the times when indians & cowboys/far west movies were very popular...are Northamerican natives to report me?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Huh. Strange that I watched in the theater in Japan. Korea too as I recall.

You might want to check that.

You might want to check your facts and/or memory when making statements like "bomb."

It wasn't a particular hit in Japan or Hong Kong (but not a "bomb."). It did well in Taiwan and Singapore.

The problem with mainland China is, well, I will defer to others ... but:
1. Some people claim that the lengthy delay before it was released in theaters allowed caused pirated sales to destroy the (short) theatrical run. Not to mention that this wasn't a huge market at that time.

2. Other say that the authorities purposefully tanked the film because it had a Taiwanese star (which also caused the delay).

3. Still others claim that the issue was the differing "Mandarin" accents of the major stars.

I'm not in a position to judge; it does seem rather cantankerous of you to choose this as an example, given both the provenance of the film and the fact that it introduced the amazing style to so much of the world, and undoubtedly helped establish the bona fides of Asian cinema bringing legitimacy not just to the amazing Hong Kong history of movies which were previously very hard to obtain in the United States (although not for lack of trying, such as the 1996 release of Rumble in the Bronx), but also considered "lesser" in terms of technical merit. While cinephiles knew differently, this certainly was not a common opinion.


EDIT: Edited to make accent issue more clear.

 

[Aldarc]

I agree. The book doesn't need to be banned. However, I do support the notion of a disclaimer and then giving the money to charity.

Agreed. Though I have criticized a number of the anti-ban arguments, my own position is more akin to yours. Make it available with a disclaimer and let the proceeds go to a relevant charity.

 

[Hussar]

I'm not in a position to judge; it does seem rather cantankerous of you to choose this as an example, given both the provenance of the film and the fact that it introduced the amazing style to so much of the world, and undoubtedly helped establish the bona fides of Asian cinema bringing legitimacy not just to the amazing Hong Kong history of movies which were previously very hard to obtain in the United States (although not for lack of trying, such as the 1996 release of Rumble in the Bronx), but also considered "lesser" in terms of technical merit. While cinephiles knew differently, this certainly was not a common opinion.

Note, I did not choose this as an example. I was responding to @Warpiglet-7's point:

the complaint I guess is that white people wrote it. I mean when it’s crouching tiger hidden dragon or Bruce f’ing Lee it’s all good. Or anime from Japan or whatever.

I was simply pointing out that "get Asian people to write it" is hardly a surefire way to make sure that something is accepted.