Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Ruin Explorer]

(pyjamas and mana counting, IMHO, as example of cases where I don't think it is problematic)

Quite. Most of this kind of cultural appropriate is "Oh look, we needed a word for this concept which has been floating around, and this other culture/language has it, we'll just use it!". English has horribly infiltrated countless languages this way, because we have so many words .

I have no time for the bike theft example, and I do agree it was unhelpful (but not the OP's work, I think).

Pretty comfortable with not engaging you

Sure but you keep making this argument that any kind of social consciousness or considering your language leads to "pablum", which is a very extreme and specific claim, and you provide no evidence. You claim others know, but they don't provide any evidence either. You insult me, which is amusing, but again, no evidence. If you keep making the argument, it needs evidence, and I don't think it's unreasonable or unfair for me to ask for it. I'll be interested to see what happens if Aldarc or others ask for evidence on this.

I will however, keep providing counter-examples and asking you to provide any examples at all, if you keep arguing it. That's how reasoned debate works - people provide examples.

 

[Aldarc]

Somehow a call for us to responsibly consider how we use these terms we acquired from other cultures as a potential impediment to creatives. However, I would also argue that properly understanding how these terms are used in their respective cultures can lead to far greater creative venues for creatives than is being considered. Consider, for example, the case of "mana." The fantasy genre has been primarily working from the misunderstandings of 'mana' from Euro-American cultural anthropologists. This means, that the original use of "mana" has been largely untapped (no MtG pun intended) as a source of inspiration for games. And sometimes the original source provides a far richer wellspring of creativity than the appropriated understanding. We even see this in the case of European-inspired fantasy. We are seeing less of "Viking: The Horned, Pillaging Cliché" and more games like "Trudvang Chronicles."

The use of "misappropriation" in the OP probably was a part of the negative reaction it garnered, as well as the strange analogy with bike "theft".

... an analogy that stems from the silly claim that it can't be cultural appropriation if you are not aware where it was appropriated from or are working from misunderstandings of a word's actual cultural origins.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Quite. Most of this kind of cultural appropriate is "Oh look, we needed a word for this concept which has been floating around, and this other culture/language has it, we'll just use it!". English has horribly infiltrated countless languages this way, because we have so many words .

I have no time for the bike theft example, and I do agree it was unhelpful (but not the OP's work, I think).



Sure but you keep making this argument that any kind of social consciousness or considering your language leads to "pablum", which is a very extreme and specific claim, and you provide no evidence. You claim others know, but they don't provide any evidence either. You insult me, which is amusing, but again, no evidence. If you keep making the argument, it needs evidence, and I don't think it's unreasonable or unfair for me to ask for it. I'll be interested to see what happens if Aldarc or others ask for evidence on this.

I will however, keep providing counter-examples and asking you to provide any examples at all, if you keep arguing it. That's how reasoned debate works - people provide examples.

Ok

merit: wasn’t an ok of agreement

 

[Bedrockgames]

Somehow a call for us to responsibly consider how we use these terms we acquired from other cultures as a potential impediment to creatives. However, I would also argue that properly understanding how these terms are used in their respective cultures can lead to far greater creative venues for creatives than is being considered. Consider, for example, the case of "mana." The fantasy genre has been primarily working from the misunderstandings of 'mana' from Euro-American cultural anthropologists. This means, that the original use of "mana" has been largely untapped (no MtG pun intended) as a source of inspiration for games. And sometimes the original source provides a far richer wellspring of creativity than the appropriated understanding. We even see this in the case of European-inspired fantasy. We are seeing less of "Viking: The Horned, Pillaging Cliché" and more games like "Trudvang Chronicles."

... an analogy that stems from the silly claim that it can't be cultural appropriation if you are not aware where it was appropriated from or are working from misunderstandings of a word's actual cultural origins.

to be clear, I agree using an authentic approach can be interesting and creatively rewarding. My point is that it shouldn’t be the only way. Authenticity is great, except when it becomes a requirement

 

[Ruin Explorer]

... an analogy that stems from the silly claim that it can't be cultural appropriation if you are not aware where it was appropriated from or are working from misunderstandings of a word's actual cultural origins.

Still a terrible analogy though, because the analogous situation is an unjust one. You should not be treated as a criminal for mistakenly borrowing the wrong bike, and in most countries, you wouldn't be!

 

[Aldarc]

Still a terrible analogy though, because the analogous situation is an unjust one. You should not be treated as a criminal for mistakenly borrowing the wrong bike, and in most countries, you wouldn't be!

Do I regret the particular analogy I used? Most definitely. But I also don't think that a person's ignorance of the cultural origins of a term is a good defense (or standard) for whether something constitutes cultural appropriation or not.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Do I regret the particular analogy I used? Most definitely. But I also don't think that a person's ignorance of the cultural origins of a term is a good defense (or standard) for whether something constitutes cultural appropriation or not.

Sure, but I think it's problematic to associate cultural appropriation with being innately harmful (let alone accidentally casting the "accuser" in the role of a cop enforcing an unjust law!), and we should be clear that participating in cultural appropriation does not make one morally bad. If you unknowingly use an appropriated term, even one that is the product of the bad kind of appropriation, you are not a bad person. Let's be really clear on that. But it does pay to understand the origin of these terms, both in expanding the mind, and in preventing unpleasant situations and further harm.

I feel like this is the big issue with cultural appropriation. It is a neutral term. It's not academic to understand that. It can become problematic, but it is not inherently so. Being part of it, unknowingly, does not make you culpable or bad or evil or anything. It just means you were part of it. Which doesn't mean you should regret it or apologise or whatever, just that you should learn from that. You might not even need to change future usage of the term at all. But that awareness has value, and it's not oppressive to be aware of things.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'll be interested to see what happens if Aldarc or others ask for evidence on this.

At this point I won’t delve into it (since you would seize on any post I make on the topic. Not insulting you, I just don’t believe your requests feel like good faith requests based on your aggressive style of posting.,some posters feel like they are talking with you, some feel like they are pressing you against a wall and shouting. Your style is more the latter to me, and I have learned not engage people who display that posting style when they press for more information, or specifics.

 

[Maxperson]

You literally did. That's not arguable. Your words are right there. Oh well.

Are you aware that you can compare argument forms without comparing the details of the argument? If your argument is A + B = C and another argument also follows that form, I can say that the forms are equivalent without saying the details are equivalent. That's what I did. I compared the argument forms, not the details. Those are my words.

 

[Umbran]

Enough of that, and it just has a chilling effect on your ability to communicate.

So, you say, "enough of that." But, is the strategy to avoid "enough of that" really - accept none of it, so that we can never possibly go over the line into "chilled"?

If you (generic you, not Bedrockgames, in particular) reject each and every attempt to discuss the language used, you are pushing the entire burden of avoiding offense on the audience. Which you can do, but it comes around to being a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it to - the creative wants all the accolades for making a good product, but if they cheese folks off, the fault of that is entirely on someone else?

That... sounds like a dodge. Sorry, but it does.