Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

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Dire Bare

Legend
Look this up and see what you think...

View attachment 124130
Because of this thread, I was going through this last night. There's a lot of good stuff in this book, but . . . . there's lots of problems too. The "primitive" problem is here in force, and a lot of the art is cringeworthy (and, IMO, objectively of bad quality). I also don't like the separation between tribal shaman, solitary shaman, and the spiritualist shaman . . . or at least, how they are described and differentiated.
 

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Mercurius

Legend
"Spiritualist" is not at all accurate to what a shaman is, with a specific connotation to the 19th century occult movement "spiritualism." Calling shamans spiritualists would be a rather egregious instance of cultural appropriation/colonialism, for those concerned with such things, considering that the 19th century spiritualism movement was almost entirely in Europe and the US.

Shamanism is not specific to the Tungus people. The word derived from them, but is used to refer to practices and beliefs held by cultures across the globe. Using it in such a way is not cultural misappropriation.

I agree that shamans should not be equated with druids. The best solution, in my mind, is to create a shaman class that actually practices shamanism, albeit the D&D version. This doesn't require a sensitivity reader but someone who knows something about shamanism.
 

I also don't like the separation between tribal shaman, solitary shaman, and the spiritualist shaman . . . or at least, how they are described and differentiated.

That feels lifted directly from the Neo-pagan movement and Wicca, with the solitary witch, the coven witch, and the more spiritual white witch.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Because of this thread, I was going through this last night. There's a lot of good stuff in this book, but . . . . there's lots of problems too. The "primitive" problem is here in force, and a lot of the art is cringeworthy (and, IMO, objectively of bad quality). I also don't like the separation between tribal shaman, solitary shaman, and the spiritualist shaman . . . or at least, how they are described and differentiated.
That's an accurate assessment.

I used the tribal (although they are not tribal) shaman for my elves.

And used the solitary versus spiritualist as groups that have been at odds through the ages.

So I picked and chose I guess.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
That feels lifted directly from the Neo-pagan movement and Wicca, with the solitary witch, the coven witch, and the more spiritual white witch.
Possibly . . . . the tribal shaman is one who serves the community, they are the intermediary between the community and the spirit world. The solitary is the weird hermit in the woods. The spiritualist is . . . not well described, but the "darkest" of the three (as per the book) and seems to be based on 19th century spiritualist mediums to a degree.

There IS a lot of good stuff in this book, and it seems like the authors did their research into the social science literature on shamanism . . . . and carried forward the problems with how Western society views indigenous religion.
 

Did a Japanese developer approach TSR in the early 80s about producing something similar to Oriental Adventures?

I'm not sure why you think that's material to questions of cultural appropriation. I'm sorry mate, but "Well nobody actually tracked me down and said they wanted to do it!" doesn't make so that harmful cultural appropriation isn't harmful.

In this case, I don't think there was much harm, if any, beyond some issues with the book itself (primarily around the fact that it's called Oriental Adventures).

But say you, a white guy (I'm assuming), decided you wanted to do a book based on some cool cultural/mythological stuff about a particular Native American tribe, which are not are in way related to, and you made little serious effort to see if you could find someone from that tribe (or a related one) to collaborate, or even be primary author, then yeah, you'd be doing something kinda crummy. Not evil but not great. If you talked to the community, no-one wanted to be in on writing it, but they were happy for you to do so, and happy to provide info and stuff for it, then great, you might still get someone who doesn't know going "cultural appropriation!" but you could have a nice foreword in your book explaining the situation. It's much more important with groups like Native Americans, because they're severely disenfranchised anyway, and particularly have had their culture stolen and misportrayed a lot, so it's good to avoid doing that again.

Remember OA was not Zeb Cook's idea - Gary Gygax said they needed to do an OA book to cash in on the then-popularity in media of a lot of these things (and ninjas and to a lesser extent samurai were indeed popular in film and books right then). So at that point, the "right thing" to do (by modern standards, I accept this would have been less obvious in 1984) would be to see if you could find someone in Japan, who was familiar with D&D, and preferably had good English to make things easy, and was a writer (not actually that high a bar - D&D was quite big in Japan right then), and wanted to run this. But that's not what happened - he got Zeb Cook to do it - thankfully Zeb Cook got some actual Japanese people involved (which is downright unusual - most of this sort of book makes no attempt to involve people from the culture portrayed), which probably helped it.
 

MGibster

Legend
I'm not sure why you think that's material to questions of cultural appropriation. I'm sorry mate, but "Well nobody actually tracked me down and said they wanted to do it!" doesn't make so that harmful cultural appropriation isn't harmful.

I'm very confused because you're the one who brought up economic harm.

Ruin Explorer said:
This also misses the point that you're not appropriating from say, Chinese-Americans, in most cases, but from actual Chinese people or wherever. So the economic harm is more there.

And I was very interested to hear from you what economic harm was caused to anyone in Japan or China because of Bushido, Oriental Adventures, or Legend of the Five Rings and you replied as follows.

Ruin Explorer said:
Well it prevented an actual Japanese developer from writing such a product for TSR, and TSR sued the hell out of third-party stuff so that wasn't possible either. That's the issue, at the crux.

I was very intrigued to learn that a Japanese developer was interested in writing something similar for OA. Was this the case or were you simply raising a hypothetical issue?
 

Can you provide an example of that kind of harm? The link does not seem intuitively apparent between "white people generalize, bowlderize and misunderstand some cultural stuff, but manage to make it highly marketable for aforementioned white people" and the marginalized group loses money they would otherwise have.

Most arguments and examples I have seen for the economic angle are focused on the unfairness that the marginalized group does not profit as the privileged one does, not that the marginalized group loses money.

Not sure why this is complicated, but I okay I guess some people have difficulty with this. Obviously yes, there's the unfairness you describe.

But culture is like an IP. Particularly cultures that are somewhat obscure and have some broadly interesting myth/stories/ideas. That IP has value, and that IP can be damaged.

If I write, say, Choctaw Adventures, or whatever (I swear to god if anyone tries to argue specifics on this entirely theoretical example I WILL block them and never think about them again), and I use Choctaw myth and so on, may misunderstood in some kinda crummy ways, but let's focus on the economic, because it's what you want to know about. I don't share the profit with anyone from the community or whatever, so you've already identified a harm in that they don't profit, but I do.

But there's more than that - if someone from that community had wanted to do a Choctaw sourcebook, well, too late, there's already one written a white guy. Any one they put out is going to struggle to get out of the shadow of that. Because it's not the first, it's probably going to have to be twice as good to attract half the notice. And even if it's more authentic, or even just cooler, because there's going to be a ton of overlap, some people are just not going to be interested.

And it could be worse - the person who wrote Choctaw Adventures could have really mucked it up, and make the IP toxic or crummy-seeming in some way, like maybe he told the myths very poor, or made them seem boring or dumb, so he's damages the IP as well, so then if an actual member of the marginalized group wanted to write his Choctaw sourcebook, it's even harder for them to succeed, and it may be that the idiot who took your myths has managed to convince a bunch of people that they're dumb and boring (or even just that they know them already when they don't), which might even damage projects in other media.

Then on another level, there's the issue of "official" books. Say WotC put out Choctaw Adventures (remember this is theoretical people, don't make me Block you!), then that's going to massively boost the sales of that book. But say you come along and say to WotC, guys, this is the bad kind of cultural appropriation, and misrepresents our myths in a really crummy way, let us do a better version, chances are, they won't want to, because they already did a Choctaw Adventures, and it sucked (or succeeded, it doesn't actually matter), but they're not going to put out another book on the same subject in the same edition, so your community double misses out.

So do you see how that's harmful to artists and creators from that community on a level beyond the unfairness you already identified?

Now, note, this isn't always bad, particularly if you work with the community in question, and particularly if you just take one story or one myth, and you do a really good job - because then you can actually increase interest in that marginalized culture. But historically that's been rare, and typically requires a fair bit of luck or exceptional judgement.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
1e PHB: "[Druids] are the only absolute neutrals... viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things."
2e PHB: "Clerics are generally good"

The paladin class is also relevant.

2e PHB: "Throughout legend and history there are many heroes who could be called paladins: Roland and the 12 Peers of Charlemagne, Sir Lancelot, Sir Gawain, and Sir Galahad are all examples of the class... A paladin must be lawful good in alignment"
Sure, but those things don't make value judgments about real world Druids, Clerics and Paladins. They say what game Druids, Clerics and Paladins are like.
 

I was very intrigued to learn that a Japanese developer was interested in writing something similar for OA. Was this the case or were you simply raising a hypothetical issue?

I'm not sure if you're really having comprehension problems with what I'm saying, or just trolling here. It doesn't seem like you're interested in the general issue, but rather trying to make some kind pointless argument about OA specifically, so you do you.

The best solution, in my mind, is to create a shaman class that actually practices shamanism, albeit the D&D version. This doesn't require a sensitivity reader but someone who knows something about shamanism.

Dude, how is it you haven't already realized that Shamanism isn't a consistent thing, given this thread? Shamanism is a word use to identify a wildly broad swathe of practices, which range from the highly informal to the extremely formal.

There's no such thing as "the D&D version" of Shamanism, because it's been a bunch of different things.

Also one of the more consistent features of Shamanism, world-wide, is some kind of notion of shapeshifting, alongside spellcasting, so your declaration that Druids are inappropriate for it is pretty weird given the rest of what you're saying. If anything, if you wanted Shamans in D&D, and to not do them a complete injustice, you're going to need to overlap significantly with Druid, or simply make D&D's Druid (which has nothing at all to do with Celtic Druids) into a subclass of Shaman or something.

And it does require a sensitivity reader as well, because most/all of the religions which involved practices deemed "Shamanism" belong to marginalized groups, some extremely marginalized. Just waving your hand and dismissing that is, frankly, exactly the attitude that leads really unfortunate stuff happening.
 

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