Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[jasper]

Ok since Shaman is a bad word. Give us A word to use in replace of Shaman.
edit to add Bad as in has a history.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Ok since Shaman is a bad word. Give us A word to use in replace of Shaman.
edit to add Bad as in has a history.

Maybe Spiritualists? I don't think Shaman is a bad word as long as they're portrayed in an inoffensive way.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think you're focusing a bit on the economic side of the thing. In a social sense, Asians in the US still experience a great deal of marginalization.

Isn't that kind of reasonable, though, re: cultural appropriation? Social marginalization is a complex and non-one-sided issue (i.e. it's not always "oppressor group keeps marginalized group out"), and cultural appropriation is most often harmful when it is taking bread out of the mouths of marginalized groups, as it were, typically by having a bunch of white people generalize, bowlderize and misunderstand some cultural stuff, but manage to make it highly marketable for aforementioned white people.

You have a valid point, but the prohibition against appropriation even applies to groups higher on the socio-economic ladder. Asians in the US have a higher median income and are more educated than any other group in the country. I realize income and education are but two metrics, but they're pretty important metrics.

There's no "prohibition" against appropriation, merely a suggestion that one take care and consider what one is doing. People culturally appropriate stuff all the time without causing any problems, including from Asia.

This also misses the point that you're not appropriating from say, Chinese-Americans, in most cases, but from actual Chinese people or wherever. So the economic harm is more there.

Ok since Shaman is a bad word.

Why do this? No-one has said that.

 

[MGibster]

There's no "prohibition" against appropriation, merely a suggestion that one take care and consider what one is doing. People culturally appropriate stuff all the time without causing any problems, including from Asia.

I didn't mean prohibition in the literal sense that someone passed a law against it. And I certainly agree that people culturally appropriate all the time. But when I hear it within the context of gaming it's not used in a neutral sense it's used negatively. Including here.

This also misses the point that you're not appropriating from say, Chinese-Americans, in most cases, but from actual Chinese people or wherever. So the economic harm is more there.

We've been over this in other threads such as the recent Oriental Adventures one. OA didn't do any economic harm to China or Japan. In fact, OA probably never would have existed if Chinese and Japanese production companies weren't making money by exporting their media to the United States in the 60s and 70s. If you've got a good argument to make that the existence of games like Legend of the Five Rings, OA, or other similar gaming products has done economic harm to China and Japan I'd be interested in hearing it. Also, in some of those other threads, some people pointed out that it didn't actually matter what Japanese or Chinese people thought of the product. What mattered was what Asian Americans thought of it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you've got a good argument to make that the existence of games like Legend of the Five Rings, OA, or other similar gaming products has done economic harm to China and Japan I'd be interested in hearing it.

Well it prevented an actual Japanese developer from writing such a product for TSR, and TSR sued the hell out of third-party stuff so that wasn't possible either. That's the issue, at the crux. It also, by saying it represented all of the Orient, made it so that even though it was just "Japanese Mythology Adventures", people would think there was no room for a "Chinese Mythology Adventures" or the like, which was unhelpful.

I mean, I love Zeb Cook, and he ensured that some Japanese people were actually involved in the making of OA (and hopefully they benefited in some way), but this is a book that really should have been written either by a Japanese author (including Japanese-Americans, of course), or in actual clear collaboration with them.

Indeed, that could, for example, have lead to more "Japanese Mythology Adventures"-type products from Japanese authors. And a better title and approach might have left room for other cultures.

To be fair with OA, it was less of a problem because Japan is relatively powerful nation with a powerful culture that actually, unlike most, is exported worldwide in many ways. They're not the best example for claiming negative cultural appropriation.

More disenfranchised groups are more harmed by cultural appropriation of this kind than Japan. It's still a disappointing missed opportunity that they didn't use or formally collaborate with a Japanese/Japanese-American writer though (but again, Zeb Cook clearly made an effort to actually include actual Japanese viewpoints, so there's that).

Also, in some of those other threads, some people pointed out that it didn't actually matter what Japanese or Chinese people thought of the product.

Did they? I'm not seeing any argument, rationale, or basis for that view. It doesn't seem logical or reasonable, on the surface, so if you believe that's some kind of "point" you're going to have to explain it.

But when I hear it within the context of gaming it's not used in a neutral sense it's used negatively. Including here.

Sure it is. I and others have used it neutrally multiple times in this thread. But you interpret it solely negatively.

Which is exactly the problem I stated earlier - a lot of people are apparently incapable of hearing "cultural appropriation" and not seeing it as an attack on someone. It seems bizarre to me but there you are.

 

[Aldarc]

Look this up and see what you think...

The cover uses 'papyrus' font, so I already hate it.

 

[SkidAce]

The cover uses 'papyrus' font, so I already hate it.

Hmmm, I dont see a smiley....

 

[MGibster]

Well it prevented an actual Japanese developer from writing such a product for TSR, and TSR sued the hell out of third-party stuff so that wasn't possible either. That's the issue, at the crux.

Did a Japanese developer approach TSR in the early 80s about producing something similar to Oriental Adventures?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I think Shamans should come out as a class in 5e, but they should definitely be careful with the language describing them, have sensitivity readers so they can avoid offensive language, and just in general try to avoid calling them savage or anything like that.

 

[Voadam]

cultural appropriation is most often harmful when it is taking bread out of the mouths of marginalized groups, as it were, typically by having a bunch of white people generalize, bowlderize and misunderstand some cultural stuff, but manage to make it highly marketable for aforementioned white people.

Can you provide an example of that kind of harm? The link does not seem intuitively apparent between "white people generalize, bowlderize and misunderstand some cultural stuff, but manage to make it highly marketable for aforementioned white people" and the marginalized group loses money they would otherwise have.

Most arguments and examples I have seen for the economic angle are focused on the unfairness that the marginalized group does not profit as the privileged one does, not that the marginalized group loses money.