D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Guest 6801328]

(also Treantmonk tend to focus a lot on mechanical optimization, which I find boring).

He also thinks it's humorous to demean people who don't have system mastery, which is crass.

Several times I've wanted to direct younger players to his god wizard material, but I don't want to teach them that it's ok to belittle people for not being expert at a game of make-believe.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

That's a good point. Monks are WEIRD compared to other class because they're trying to be too many Kung Fu movies at once.

I mean, sure. If you want to label a good chunk of Asian action cinema as "Kung Fu" movies, then I guess?

But given that "kung fu" action (if not the kung fu action grip) has so permeated the gestalt of all culture such that almost all action includes "kung fu" and Buffy the Vampire Slayer regularly squares off in martial arts kung fu against vampires and other fantasy miscreants, and the John Wick franchise is about laying down the martial arts and gun-fu smackdown, I am not entirely sure that we shouldn't have an archetype within D&D for it.

What, do we really need five gazillion casters?

Well, that caster gets his spells from the book-learnin'?
And that caster gets his spells from a deity.
And that caster gets his spells from a patron, but not a deity.
And that caster gets his spells 'cuz he was just born with it.
And that caster get his spells because bards are stupid.

... and so on. When we live in the world of Oprah Casters ("You get a spell! And you get a spell! And you get a spell! And you get a spell!") should we really begrudge having one interesting martial option? Is that too much to ask for?

Seriously, maybe one day bards will sing and extol the virtues of the monks, if they weren't so busy casting spells.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

He also thinks it's humorous to demean people who don't have system mastery, which is crass.

Several times I've wanted to direct younger players to his god wizard material, but I don't want to teach them that it's ok to belittle people for not being expert at a game of make-believe.

I agree.

I also prefer blaster wizard. Throwing fire and lightning left and right and grabbing a lot of die and doing a big ''KERPLKUNK!'' on the wooden table is pure satisfaction.

Way more than yet another: ''ahaha got ya! I've stun-locked another encounter you wasted time prepping for so that everybody could contribute. You guys can do the mop up now, I'll be in the chariot maintaining my concentration.''

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

double post.

 

[Todd Roybark]

If it was me I’d start out by comparing a open hand monk to a TWF battlemaster fighter.

He does....if by start..you mean 9 freaking minutes into this thing.

Firstly Treantmonks "Base Damage Benchmark" is the average damage of a Warlock casting Eldritch Blast against the target of their Hex spell.

So his complaint is the monk class, by consistently failing to match the tedium of this DPS combo, sucks.

I play D&D for memories. A series of Pew Pew dice rolls from an Eldritch Blast/Hex combo is probably going to be forgotten in 5 years...it is D&D empty calories...dice rolls in the ether.

Monks score low on DPS but score High on ECS...Effective Cool Score.
The monk at it's best, embraces Wu Wei, and picks the right moment to strike, to nova, to shape the course of the battle.
The monk, gets to be effective and cool.

Treantmonk stated that Stunning Fist is a poor option because when a 5th level PC group is fighting a group of CR 5 monsters, just stunning one monster is too limited an impact.

That is absolute nonsense.
Treantmonk has no measurement of timing, it is just anonymized raw DPS data.....which is not how D&D is played. An RPG is very particuliarized....

Now that said, Monks have huge MAD issues: STR(Jumping, Grapple) DEX, WIS, and CON.
Monks also really need Magic Items...ironically. Bracers of Defense and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength come to mind. A Flametongue Monk Glove that works on unarmed strikes would be awesome.

Monks are also going to want to meditate for an hour after a nova. As a DM placing a few QI potions, or a expendable magic Sutra that boosts Monk DCs or a scroll that activates say a Jump of the Wind without a Qi point cost, (similar to a spell scroll), can help out monks if you feel they are underpowered.

Boosting the Martial Arts die via home brew feat or Supernatural Boon, won't hurt either.

 

[Undrave]

Ah, got it. Yes, as someone up thread said, the dependence on DEX/WIS is sort of terrible. And often CON too as you note the d8 HitDice is not great. That's why my monk has 8 STR, and 10 in both INT and CHA.

which in turns leave you less leeway to make different types of characters. You can't have a charismatic or academic Monk unless you roll for stat and get lucky.

Mage slayer? Martial Adept? Defensive Duelist? Lucky? Plenty of feats to choose from. But mobile isn't needed to be a combat weaver. Their base movement already gets increased by a flat amount and they can take the dash action to double that.

Mobile is mostly there for the 'no opportunity attacks' bit after you have hit someone, letting you bounce without using up your Bonus Action or Ki points.

A monk really isn't a DPS class, in the slightest. Comparing a monk's DPS and saying the class is bad for it is like comparing a bard's damage capabilities to a sorcerer, you'd be correct but ultimately missing the point.

It's expected to wade into melee, therefore I think it's useful to look at its DPS. Bards can buff and debut. The Monk has ONE trick to really disable enemies: Stunning Strike. If you only have one trick you should be good at DPS to compensate the lack of flexibility.

I mean, sure. If you want to label a good chunk of Asian action cinema as "Kung Fu" movies, then I guess?

It's more a reflection on the first Monk's inspiration being 70s kung fu movies. Martial arts action is just an aesthetic, it's not a character concept. With good hand to hand damage you can play any of the other melee class as a martial artist. The monk should do more than just be 'the martial arts guy who punches stuff'.

should we really begrudge having one interesting martial option? Is that too much to ask for?

Not at all! I love Martial classes! But the Monk is a little too supernatural for me to count as fully Martial. He's certainly not mundane like a Fighter or Rogue.

 

[FrogReaver]

He does....if by start..you mean 9 freaking minutes into this thing.

Firstly Treantmonks "Base Damage Benchmark" is the average damage of a Warlock casting Eldritch Blast against the target of their Hex spell.

So his complaint is the monk class, by consistently failing to match the tedium of this DPS combo, sucks.

I play D&D for memories. A series of Pew Pew dice rolls from an Eldritch Blast/Hex combo is probably going to be forgotten in 5 years...it is D&D empty calories...dice rolls in the ether.

Monks score low on DPS but score High on ECS...Effective Cool Score.
The monk at it's best, embraces Wu Wei, and picks the right moment to strike, to nova, to shape the course of the battle.
The monk, gets to be effective and cool.

Treantmonk stated that Stunning Fist is a poor option because when a 5th level PC group is fighting a group of CR 5 monsters, just stunning one monster is too limited an impact.

That is absolute nonsense.
Treantmonk has no measurement of timing, it is just anonymized raw DPS data.....which is not how D&D is played. An RPG is very particuliarized....

Now that said, Monks have huge MAD issues: STR(Jumping, Grapple) DEX, WIS, and CON.
Monks also really need Magic Items...ironically. Bracers of Defense and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength come to mind. A Flametongue Monk Glove that works on unarmed strikes would be awesome.

Monks are also going to want to meditate for an hour after a nova. As a DM placing a few QI potions, or a expendable magic Sutra that boosts Monk DCs or a scroll that activates say a Jump of the Wind without a Qi point cost, (similar to a spell scroll), can help out monks if you feel they are underpowered.

Boosting the Martial Arts die via home brew feat or Supernatural Boon, won't hurt either.

I don’t get that. Under most circumstances for the first half of the game a monk will out damage an eb and hex warlock.

The warlock likely pulls ahead a little at level 11 but by that time a monk has enough ki to to flurry of blows all day and stunning strike some.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It's more a reflection on the first Monk's inspiration being 70s kung fu movies. Martial arts action is just an aesthetic, it's not a character concept. With good hand to hand damage you can play any of the other melee class as a martial artist. The monk should do more than just be 'the martial arts guy who punches stuff'.

But that sort of gets into the whole, "What is Class, anyway? Really, even though it has Andrew McCarthy and Rob Lowe, isn't it kind of icky in retrospect?"

Ahem.

If you don't care much for the aesthetic, that's fine. But that's kind of like saying, "Barbarians are just inspired by Conan." Or "Warlocks are just Faust and Cthulhu in a blender."

Class is arbitrary. Monks have as much, if not more, of a claim to legitimacy than do Clerics, or Paladins.

And certainly a heck of lot more than Bards! Sheesh. Don't even get me started on that whole, "I'm not a lute-player, I'm a SKALD! I'm FIERCE!" Yeah, right, we see right through you and your pathetic attempts to play Star Wars on the recorder, Nick.

Not at all! I love Martial classes! But the Monk is a little too supernatural for me to count as fully Martial. He's certainly not mundane like a Fighter or Rogue.

At a certain point, all martial characters and all action tropes in cinema stretch believably. A monk's supernatural abilities is no more "supernatural" than the so-called gritty realism of western traditional action cinema, that has countless "supernatural" themes we don't explore or question.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

My problem with the monk is that it is not supernatural enough. If you're gonna do this trope then go full Wuxia!

 

[Undrave]

But that sort of gets into the whole, "What is Class, anyway? Really, even though it has Andrew McCarthy and Rob Lowe, isn't it kind of icky in retrospect?"

Ahem.

If you don't care much for the aesthetic, that's fine. But that's kind of like saying, "Barbarians are just inspired by Conan." Or "Warlocks are just Faust and Cthulhu in a blender."

Class is arbitrary. Monks have as much, if not more, of a claim to legitimacy than do Clerics, or Paladins.

And certainly a heck of lot more than Bards! Sheesh. Don't even get me started on that whole, "I'm not a lute-player, I'm a SKALD! I'm FIERCE!" Yeah, right, we see right through you and your pathetic attempts to play Star Wars on the recorder, Nick.

D&D classes are a whole kettle of fish honestly. What even IS a Ranger anyway?

If the Monk is to represent multiple martial arts, I feel like it needs more special moves like Stunning Strike and not just "Punch, Punch a Lot, Stunning Punch' as its move list. If nothing else, they should be able to shove on a hit at low level. They're also terrible as grappling because they can't invest in STR and have no Expertise in Athletics.