D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Asisreo]

Problem is, the Monk's damage is lackluster (about Treantmonk's baseline damage for levels 1-9 if you go all-in on offense). If you took the Mobile feat instead of boosting Dex, it's even worse.

Adding a minor effect to bad damage doesn't save a class that has poor tanking, no spells, poor utility, and poor control.

The monk has never been an "all-in offense" character since he has features that relate to a more defensive strategy. In terms of defenses against effects, the monk has pretty much all classes beat hands down.

But it's strange we even put down a term like "baseline damage." If we want to talk about bad baseline damage, wizards and bards are horrible. But damage isn't the only part of the picture.

Poor tanking? They have proficiency in all saves, the lowest possible saving throw modifier they'll have at max level is 5. They can also reroll failed saves. They can also resist all damage except force for 1/5th of their encounter resources. And enemies will permanently have disadvantage on them for the rest of the fight, too. And they can't be targeted by most spells like magic missile. And they have deflect missile which turns the enemies DPS against them, by a small amount.

No spells? checks monk's section to make sure my eyes didn't deceive me. They have Astral Projection, a ninth-level spell that uses material components for 2/5ths of an encounter's resource.

Poor utility? And their tongue of sun and moon never comes in handy? Invisibility without concentration isn't good utility? How about doubling jump distance for 1/3 of an encounter's resources? Not needing food and water? Not to mention the buttload of utility that the subclasses grant, especially shadow and elemonks.

Poor control? They can basically determine which monster ever gets to move and attack if they're left to roam free a battlefield without contest, which they can with Bonus Action disengage.

I have never, ever, experienced any of these problems in my 3 campaigns I've played monk. 1 from level 1-7, the other two at higher levels 13-18 amd 16-20. Never, not once, have I felt I was a poor class that didn't functionally work. If I was looking for damage and pure damage, I would've chosen barbarian. I didn't want pure damage, though, I wanted to be an effective skirmisher and mage killer while also having the ability to apply debuffs that the whole party can benefit from.

 

[Asisreo]

Except every single martial has a subclass for magical attacks.

Except Barbarians.

And by "pure martial," I'm excluding 3rd casters.

 

[Mistwell]

Except Barbarians.

And by "pure martial," I'm excluding 3rd casters.

Path of the Storm Herald isn't magical attacks?

 

[Todd Roybark]

[

Except every single martial has a subclass for magical attacks.

You are resting your case on the Arcane Archer?
I bet 10 quatloos on the Monk.

He struggles to make even baseline damage,

Baseline in the case of the video is a warlock using Hex and attacking with Eldritch Blast.
The most boring combo in 5e.

There are no attempts to calculate a firm number on the Opportunity Costs of using the Hex/EB combo.

Any character that uses a Grapple as a tactic, will also fall below this so called " DPS baseline".
So should we assume that team DPS Uber Alles believes that Grapple Attacks are a waste?

The video doesn't even address that a Warlock built to maximize Hex and EB, often is not going to have Hex up in real world situations.

Mistwell, the tweaks you proposed, solve the supposed 'problem'. The class at worst, 5e sucks, which is about as much hassle as a slightly underpowered multi-class Character in 3e.

In terms of DM design, Ki potions, Magic Sutras, Supernatural Boons that increase the Martial Arts die...etc....these are all easy items to design.
So easy, in fact, I therefore quote City Slickers:
"Scoop of chocolate, scoop of vanilla, don't waste my time"

 

[Asisreo]

Path of the Storm Herald isn't magical attacks?

No, they aren't. Their attacks never become magical ever.

The best they can do is either use their aura to do 4d6 damage lightning damage at level 20. Not very impressive (and not an attack), or having to hit first before forcing a save in which the enemy takes a maximum of...10 damage.

If you were to compound all of this, the barbarian would still be unable to catch up with a monk against an enemy with BPS resistance (better hope they don't resist fire and lightning).

 

[Savage Wombat]

I'm wondering how much of these "problems" with monks would be addressed if they game system had more support for them.

They can't easily find magic items that enhance their abilities, like fighters, or extend their resources, like spellcasters. And they apparently don't have the power-building options to maximize their effectiveness through feats and such.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Path of the Storm Herald isn't magical attacks?

Wait...the argument is "Monks suck because their DPS is low", but the Magical damage from the Path of Storm is fine?
Yeah...cue closing credits music......

 

[cbwjm]

For all the flaws of the monk, the one that bothers me the most? Almost no support for anything but Dex/Wis.

I would take The Pugilist any day.

This is my main issue with the monk and it's related to when it gains its subclass. I think the class is fine, doesn't need to be top tier at everything, but I'd like to do a Strength of the Mountain subclass that leverages strength for it's subclass, including changing unarmoured defence to strength+wisdom instead of dexterity+wisdom. If you do that when you pick up your subclass then you have a couple levels where the monk is really easy to hit.

 

[Mistwell]

[

You are resting your case on the Arcane Archer?
I bet 10 quatloos on the Monk.

Baseline in the case of the video is a warlock using Hex and attacking with Eldritch Blast.
The most boring combo in 5e.

It has nothing to do with thrill, it's just a fixed number that can be used to compare to any build. Including a warlock build. It's not intended to be something to play - just what can be achieved with no effort.

There are no attempts to calculate a firm number on the Opportunity Costs of using the Hex/EB combo. The video doesn't even address that a Warlock built to maximize Hex and EB, often is not going to have Hex up in real world situations.

Yes. Exactly. Baseline Damage is not intended to be an optimized damage calculation at all. It's not optimized to maximize Hex and EB - you get those doing virtually nothing. That's what makes it "baseline". You can see what goes into it here and why it's used.

 

[Mistwell]

No, they aren't. Their attacks never become magical ever.

"Barbarians who follow the Path of the Storm Herald learn to transform that rage into a mantle of primal magic, which swirls around them. When in a fury, a barbarian of this path taps into the forces of nature to create powerful magical effects."

Storm Aura: Starting at 3rd level, you emanate a stormy, magical aura while you rage.

If your aura’s effects require a saving throw, the DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.

...all other creatures in your aura take 2 fire damage each. The damage increases when you reach certain levels in this class, increasing to 3 at 5th level, 4 at 10th level, 5 at 15th level, and 6 at 20th level... The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. The target takes 1d6 lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases when you reach certain levels in this class, increasing to 2d6 at 10th level, 3d6 at 15th level, and 4d6 at 20th level...

That's all, of course, an attack. It's not an "attack action" but it's an attack. It would, for example, break charm effects or invisibility effects which change the condition if you attack. And it's all magical. I didn't say it was "impressive" by the way. It's just a "subclass" which includes "magical attacks".