D&D 5E Monks Suck

[FrogReaver]

It's almost like monks get compared to the damage of a GWF, the AC of a plate and shield fighter, the hp of a Barbarain, the mobility of a rogue (or is it a horse), the saves of a paladin and somehow not being able to do better than all that combined at once makes a monk suck?

Now I get, monks after level 11 suck at damage - well at least until you start counting the advantage you can give allies. Melee allies get advantage when you prone an enemy using open hand and flurry of blows. All allies get advantage when you stun an enemy. By level 11+ you have enough KI to flurry of blows every round and stunning strike some. I'm almost betting the advantage you can great will be a far bigger benefit than an extra attack or other self damage enhancing mechanism. The reason this party advantage based damage doesn't get brought up is because it's very hard to quantify. But in an actual game it will be noticed!

Heck, by level 16 I'd say you could flurry and stunning strike each once per round.

 

[Flamestrike]

Why is damage always the indicator of combat effectiveness? Interesting since it comes from Treantmonk who decries 'blaster' Wizards (who do damage) in favour of 'God' wizards (who impose status effects).

The base-line Monk (no MC) can do amazing things with status effects, with one of the nastiest ones (Stunned) which is also the least resisted (Helmed horror, Revenant and Demi-Lich only). You're incapacitated, grant advantage on attack rolls against you, cant move or take actions or reactions, automatically fail Str and Dex saves until the start of the Monks next turn.

That is a death sentence for anyone who fails that save.

They also have the mobility built into the class to ensure that they can close with a priority target (spell caster, boss monster) and can confidently deliver that nasty status effect on Round 1.

They're also amazing at softening up legendaries. Stunned is a condition that (if the Con save is failed) will always burn a LR (it's too nasty not to) and they can spam multiple stuns per turn, ablating those LR's in a round or two.

And I dont get how the Monk has bad defences. Ki Dodge, deflect missiles, Slow fall, evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body, diamond soul, timeless body and empty body are all great defensive abilities on the core chassis.

What does the core Fighter get as a defensive ability? Indomitable?

The problem with Monks is I see people play them as a Tank, and not as a Striker., and Treantmonk seems to be criticising them based on them being bad at being Tanks, when that's not the role they're built for.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why is damage always the indicator of combat effectiveness? Interesting since it comes from Treantmonk who decries 'blaster' Wizards (who do damage) in favour of 'God' wizards (who impose status effects).

Damage is the easiest to analyze indicator of effectiveness.

The base-line Monk (no MC) can do amazing things with status effects, with one of the nastiest ones (Stunned) which is also the least resisted (Helmed horror, Revenant and Demi-Lich only). You're incapacitated, grant advantage on attack rolls against you, cant move or take actions or reactions, automatically fail Str and Dex saves until the start of the Monks next turn.

Sure. But stun is fairly expensive. Strong effect, but it's expensive and more resisted by the enemies you normally would be most wanting to stun. With 5 ki you might stun something particularly important 2 out of 5 attempts - which also ends up using all your KI.

Stunning Strike is good but it has quite a few major limitations.

The problem with Monks is I see people play them as a Tank, and not as a Striker., and Treantmonk seems to be criticising them based on them being bad at being Tanks, when that's not the role they're built for.

They make excellent tanks provided you use most of your ki on the dodge action.

 

[Merudo]

Monk vs GWF Battlemaster (no feats)
View attachment 124229

1) How do arrive at these numbers? For example at level 5 I'm getting Monk DPR of (2*4.5 + 3.5)*0.65 + 4*3*0.60 = 15.325, and SR damage equals to 5(3.5*0.65 + 4*0.60) = 23.375, for effective DPR of 18.24687.
2) What maneuver is the BM performing? I assume a maneuver that gives 4.5 damage and some control effect.
3) I get a Battlemaster DPR of 2*(2*3.5+1.33)*0.65 + 2*4*0.60 = 15.629, with SR damage equals to 15.629 + 4.5*4 =33.629, for effective DPR of 19.52862.

 

[Ashrym]

Not a fan of the argument.

Using eldritch blast plus agonizing blast plus hex as the baseline is too high a baseline, and DPR wouldn't be everything even if there were a significant gap.

If that's the baseline most classes struggle with damage without relying on feat support.

Mobility sucks because horse was clearly reaching.

Comparing subclasses to base classes is even less apples to oranges than monks to x class.

Monks can off-tank but players don't like to because it impacts DPR, which isn't everything. To me, that's versatility in changing the role a bit as needed.

As mentioned, other classes don't have the higher AC and weapon damage from a two hander. That's a Schrodinger argument.

MAD does hit them. They are very reliant on both WIS and DEX, but at least both offer a lot of benefits.

I don't think any class actually sucks. Some can be awkward in implemention but still effective. Just not necessarily effective the way a player might want (DPR plus extras)

Seriously, maybe one day bards will sing and extol the virtues of the monks, if they weren't so busy casting spells.

They should now. Praise-poets/singers would be a typical RP style for a bard.

And certainly a heck of lot more than Bards! Sheesh...

Bards are prominent in real world history and mythology, and represented in pop culture.

I have no issues justifying that existence. ;-)

So where is their bonus to Religion, Insight, and History?

It's inherent in proficiency access and ability score development. 5e is based on an unmodified check when rolling is necessary. The description for setting DC's goes over ability score and proficiency hitting moderate / hard.

Needing stacking extra bonuses is a different model from past editions.

I think the issue here was that short rests are more rare if you don't have a lot of encounters per day, which is pretty common in my experience. If you have one big fight prior to long rest, than you have the same recharge as the long rest people, which means your power is reduced relatively.

It's always easier to justify a short rest over a long rest. IME, lack of short rests because a long rest gets taken instead isn't an issue.

 

[Merudo]

Why is damage always the indicator of combat effectiveness? Interesting since it comes from Treantmonk who decries 'blaster' Wizards (who do damage) in favour of 'God' wizards (who impose status effects).

It's not - but if your character can't do good damage, it better offers some decent healing/support/control on the battlefield. The Monk, unfortunately, is a poor controller as well.

The OP's summary of Treantmonk's video is unfortunately missing important parts of his analysis, which gives readers a poor understanding of Treantmonk's argument.

The base-line Monk (no MC) can do amazing things with status effects, with one of the nastiest ones (Stunned) which is also the least resisted (Helmed horror, Revenant and Demi-Lich only). You're incapacitated, grant advantage on attack rolls against you, cant move or take actions or reactions, automatically fail Str and Dex saves until the start of the Monks next turn.

That is a death sentence for anyone who fails that save.

Treantmonk described how (1) most creatures have high CON saving throws, (2) between the Mobility feat, Dex increase, and Wis increase, Monks struggle to keep a high DC up for Stunning Strike, and (3) the control provided by Stunning Strike is unimpressive compared to spells such as Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Conjure Animals, etc.

They also have the mobility built into the class to ensure that they can close with a priority target (spell caster, boss monster) and can confidently deliver that nasty status effect on Round 1.

Mobility on the Monk is wasted unfortunately, given how little they can do with it.

Plus, anyone can buy a horse and be as/more mobile than the Monk.

And I dont get how the Monk has bad defences. Ki Dodge, deflect missiles, Slow fall, evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body, diamond soul, timeless body and empty body are all great defensive abilities on the core chassis.

About half these are very minor, if not ribbons.

What does the core Fighter get as a defensive ability? Indomitable?

They get: d10 hitpoints per level, better CON (no need to get a 16 in WIS), Second Wind, Indominable.

The problem with Monks is I see people play them as a Tank, and not as a Striker., and Treantmonk seems to be criticising them based on them being bad at being Tanks, when that's not the role they're built for.

Treantmonk's main point is that Monks are bad at tanking, bad at damage, bad at control, and mobility is wasted on them.

 

[Immoralkickass]

And I dont get how the Monk has bad defences. Ki Dodge, deflect missiles, Slow fall, evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body, diamond soul, timeless body and empty body are all great defensive abilities on the core chassis.

Monk's defenses are kind of overlooked, but its good to maybe analyze them for a while.

First of all, Empty Body is level18, too high level, so lets leave it out.
Next, Timeless Body is not really a defensive ability. Its a ribbon.
Diamond Soul is pretty good, but its actually Aura of Protection minus the aura part, and paladins get it at level 6. Still, its good when it comes online, and it stacks with the Aura for some ridiculous save bonuses.
Purity of Body is niche, at least you can laugh when a green dragon pumps your party with its breath weapon.
Stillness of Mind is decent but its a bonus, as you get it along Evasion. Rogues only get Evasion at this level.
Slow Fall is kind of redundant if your party has Feather Fall, but its still a good emergancy button.
Deflect Missiles is unique but only limited to ranged weapon attacks. For some reason this does not come up often enough for people to take note. Most combat encounters consists of melee enemies that bum rush the nearest target. The spend Ki to throw back missile is kind of a trap, but most players still do it because of how cool it is.
And last but not least is Patient Defense, a Ki move that is often overlooked for Flurry of Blows. You could say its the players fault for not using it, but if Action Surge was tied with the same resource as Second Wind (with the same bonus action use), i know which one will get used more often.

So it seems only Patient Defense and Diamond Soul are the most widely applicable defensive abilities, followed by Evasion and Deflect Missile. They are decent, but i dont think they are as good as Lay on Hands, Second Wind, Rage, having proficiency in CON save or wearing magic armor. Low level monk especially lack proper defenses once their Ki runs dry. High level monks seem to be better off.

 

[Zardnaar]

They need a DEX 20, WIS 16 to get an AC of 18, something achievable by level 8. Of course, ai fully expect a fighter to be more resilient, but a monk is more slippery.

Plus, the monk could always just dodge as a bonus action and have an effective AC much higher than an AC 18 fighter.

I've seen it at level 1. Higher rolled stats reward monks a lot more than say a fighter.

Only class one should compare monk damage to is rogue though since damage is a fighter thing.

Monks a skirmisher.

Failing that compare like to like. Champion fighter to way of fist.

Tanky fighter to long death monk etc.

 

[Seramus]

How much would it break the monk to drop the no armor restriction on Martial Arts?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How much would it break the monk to drop the no armor restriction on Martial Arts?

Not much - you can get round it anyway by playing a tortle.

It's really just for appearances, and because the monk playstyle is based around not being in position to take hits, and therefore AC being irrelevant.