D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Asisreo]

Mea culpa: you are right.

In my mind it still doesn't make it ok. It would be one thing if there were a bunch of in-character asides that sounded like in-game roleplaying. But when it's written 1st person, from an out-of-game perspective, discussing rules and mechanics, then saying "I'm just roleplaying" does not get you off the hook for dismissing other players as being a "waste of space". In fact, I would put that excuse squarely in the same category as the classic schoolyard bully telling the teaching, "Jeesh...I was just kidding. Can't he take a joke?"

Don't worry, it's just what his character would've done.

 

[Flamestrike]

Oddly despite all this 'Monks suck' argument, in a 'white room 30' toe to toe' battle between a 5th level OH Monk and a 5th level Champion GWM Fighter, I'd have my money on the Monk.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To be fair, the PH doesn't make that assumption, but all the published adventures do.

You gotta be kidding me.

No, optimization in each class can beat that damage. That's's not the same thing.

Hex is still an unreliable assumption in any case.

The monks do have MAD issues and are pegged into skirmishers. That's true. Hex plus agonizing blast as baseline damage? Disagree.

This.

Calculating DPR is not perfect, for more reasons than you mention. However, it beats, "my gut tells me..." or "in my experience..." as these are rife with emotional bias.

No, see, this is why you are getting pushback. Experience actually very soundly trumps statistical analysis in the realm of whether a RPG character option is good or not.

Monks do not suck. They just do not dominate a single aspect of combat hence people claim, they are terrible. The only possible change I would give monks is a flat bonus to armor that stacks with Dex bonus. Maybe 15+Dex mod. The end result is still a 20 Armor Class but at lower levels the monk can tank as decently as a two weapon or great sword wielding fighter

More fun, IMO, to make it 10+dex mod+wis mod+proficiency.
Not necessary, but it won't put them into the "overpowered" category or anything.

That's not high end focus and optimization what are you talking about? It's Warlock 101. And why would Hex not be sustainable? Eldritch Blast has range of 120 feet. If you're making concentration checks, you got more to worry about than your DPS.

If you aren't making concentration checks, your DM has decided they don't want you to. Period. If the other team doesn't have archers, flying creatures, very fast creatures, or spellcasters, that is one of two things.

1. A fight meant to burn some resources for the melee characters while not actually being a challenge.

2. Poorly designed.

monks have no real way to remedy their deficits by dipping into another class

LOL what?

So...getting Hex or Hunter's Mark doesn't benefit the Monk even more than most other characters, somehow? How about Bless? How about the effective THP of wild shape, which allows the monk (and really only the monk) to lose literally nothing at all while in animal form?
You telling me in your analysis there are no synergies between the monk and 1-3 levels of cleric? Really!?

Just wild as hell.

 

[Esker]

So...getting Hex or Hunter's Mark doesn't benefit the Monk even more than most other characters, somehow? How about Bless? How about the effective THP of wild shape, which allows the monk (and really only the monk) to lose literally nothing at all while in animal form?
You telling me in your analysis there are no synergies between the monk and 1-3 levels of cleric? Really!?

Hex/Hunter's Mark can be helpful in a long fight against beefy enemies, but it's yet another bonus action you need to use.

Bless does less for a Monk than for any other character, because they do less damage when they hit, so an accuracy boost is not worth as much.

The wild shape case is more about a druid dipping monk than the other way around.

What does 1-3 levels of cleric get you? You can't use your monk stuff if you put on armor or a shield... you don't care about spiritual weapon... you are neither better at casting cleric spells nor do you benefit from them more than anyone else (less, in fact, in the case of Bless). Martial weapon proficiency doesn't really help you, because they don't become monk weapons... About the best you can say I think is that it gives you some different things to do with your action that don't require ki, which helps you stretch your ki farther on the turns when you're attacking.

 

[Flamestrike]

Vuman (Dex/ Wis) OH Monk, +2 Dex, Alert feat.

S: 10, D: 18, C: 14, I: 8, W 16, Ch: 8; Acrobatics +7, Perception +6, others, AC: 17, Initiative +9, HP 38, Move 40', Saves - Str +3, Dex +7 - Staff, shuriken (darts)

Vuman (Str/Con) Champ Fighter, GWM feat, +2 Str.

S: 18, D: 12, C: 16, I: 8, W: 13, Ch: 8; Athletics +7, Perception +4, others. AC: 18 (full plate), Initiative +1, HP 49, Move 30', Saves -Str +7, Con +6

The Monk could of course simply kite the Fighter to death using his superior movement/ step of the wind to keep at range and throwing Shuriken (monk weapons doing 1d6+4 per hit) and deflecting any return ranged attacks from the Fighter with deflect arrows, but presuming melee:

• Being Dex based (even without Alert), the Monk is more likely to go first.
• Going first, and the Monk can close with the Fighter and attack 4 times (with flurry) spending 1 Ki point to do so.
• Presuming 2 attacks hitting (4 attacks at +7 to hit vs AC 18 = Hit on 11+ - 2 hits), the Monk deals 1d8+4 (17) damage then spends 2 Ki to attempt to Stun.
• Fighter makes 2 saves vs DC 14 at +6 (needing an 8+) If he fails 1 save, it's game over.
• Possible status effect granted if one of the attacks that hit is from Flurry (due to OHM)

Presuming the Fighter is not Stunned, he goes next and likely Action Surges, but does not toggle GWM 'on' seeing as he is likely to miss 4 times if he does so (+2 vs AC 17). With GWM 'off' he likely hits twice (same as the Monk) dealing 4d6+8 re-rolling 1's and 2's (25 damage), and Second Winds for his bonus action.

The Monk gets one more turn to Stun the Fighter (only 2 Ki left so Martial arts only for 3 attacks, and no flurry this turn to re-try the Stun). Again, if he Stuns the Fighter, it's game over.

Those Con saves from the Fighter give him the best possible chance, but I'd still have money on the Monk.

A Battlemaster Fighter with Precise Strike has a much better chance of winning in melee (presuming he is not stunned or wins initiative on round 1) seeing as he can spam all 4 Superiority dice when Action surging to go for the GWM 'on' Power attacks on all 4 swings.

Of course, the Monk could also disarm the fighter (and then use his free object interaction to pick up the Sword, move away and snap it in half via attack an object; AC 19, 10 Hp) with one or more of his attacks, and the Fighter is then in a world of trouble if the Monk succeeds (+7 vs +7 on the disarm).

Even against a creature with excellent Con saves (+6 in this case) I'm not seeing how the Monk is outclassed here.

 

[Esker]

Oddly despite all this 'Monks suck' argument, in a 'white room 30' toe to toe' battle between a 5th level OH Monk and a 5th level Champion GWM Fighter, I'd have my money on the Monk.

Shall we simulate this and see how it turns out?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hex/Hunter's Mark can be helpful in a long fight against beefy enemies, but it's yet another bonus action you need to use.

Bless does less for a Monk than for any other character, because they do less damage when they hit, so an accuracy boost is not worth as much.

The wild shape case is more about a druid dipping monk than the other way around.

What does 1-3 levels of cleric get you? You can't use your monk stuff if you put on armor or a shield... you don't care about spiritual weapon... you are neither better at casting cleric spells nor do you benefit from them more than anyone else (less, in fact, in the case of Bless). Martial weapon proficiency doesn't really help you, because they don't become monk weapons... About the best you can say I think is that it gives you some different things to do with your action that don't require ki, which helps you stretch your ki farther on the turns when you're attacking.

I’m too tired to go point by point, so I’ll just say...you apparently are playing an entirely different game from the one I’ve been playing.

Every single thing is just...completely off base from anything resembling the game I’ve been playing these last several years.

 

[Flamestrike]

Shall we simulate this and see how it turns out?

Did above already.

In hindsight, I'd probably prefer a Kensai Monk to an OHM.

Post your 5th level Fighter with gear (anything non magical is fine) and I'll do the same with a 5th level Monk.

 

[Flamestrike]

Vuman (Dex/ Wis) Kensai Monk (longbow, Jian), +2 Dex, Alert feat.

S: 10, D: 18, C: 14, I: 8, W 16, Ch: 8; Acrobatics +7, Perception +6, Athletics +3, Insight +6, Stealth +7, AC: 17, Initiative +9, HP 38, Move 40', Saves - Str +3, Dex +7, Con +2, I -1, W +3, Ch -1 - Jian (Longsword) +7 (1d10+4), shuriken x 20 (daggers) +7 (1d6+4), Longbow +7 (1d8+4) and 30 arrows.

 

[Todd Roybark]

No one plays at high level!

No one on DDB, at least...should I therefore discount the opinion of everyone that plays in the shallow end of the pool. According to DDB everyone starts at 3rd level as well. Bloody Tourists!

but the rogue is about as good at range as in melee, whereas a monk forced to fight at range cuts their damage roughly in half.

How is the Rogue getting Sneak Attack? What are the opportunity costs to this...etc, etc...see my prior post regarding a similar assertion to this earlier in this thread.

Also a Monk has the easiest time of any class switching back and forth from Melee and Ranged Attacks. Good Monks will often do both, ranged and melee attacks.

I take Comprehend Languages all the time on my wizards.

I do as well. Comp Lang is a literal translation, though. The french term for "Orgasm" translates into English as "the little death". Phrases in Russian translated literally into english, sound crazy, as do Spanish Idioms.
Comp Lang is not the Tongues spell

You mean the ability that most spellcasters can have when needed at level 5?

You mean that all casters always have a spare 3rd level slot for a Tongues spell?
Unless you have Arcane Recovery, or a scroll factory, spell slots are a premium expenditure.

you might be a bit better on any given dimension than one of your teammates doesn't mean you're actually carrying your weight in a party.

Can a rogue or fighter cause a creature to automatically fail their STR and DEX Saving Throws?
A Monk stuns an aboleth, the Wizard and Lore Bard both drop Fireballs on it.
Legendary (RE)Actions don't even come into play.

Does Treantmonk take aspects like the stun/auto fail on Saving Throws into consideration...no.
Do Treantmonk's simulations, like his Dancing Light presentation, take place in great white, two dimensional plains akin to the novel Flatland....indeed they do.

So if you play in Flatland, (which is a fine place, no judgement), Monks suck.
If you don't play in Flatland....being able to run on nearly anything is fvcking cool.

Also based off the Alt Class Features U/A and the Feats U/A.....there is a good chance that all Monks will be able to chose weapons that will become Monk Weapons, and characters of all races will be able to chose a feat that grant Expertise in one skill.