D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Paul Farquhar]

Someone introduced an Eberron rogue with a bat'leth double bladed scimitar as a point of comparison. So, if that is allowed, I will see your Eberron rogue and raise you a Theros monk with the Pious Supernatural Gift, and Nylea as their deity.

Assuming a starting wisdom of 16, they can cast Hunter's Mark three times per long rest from level 1. Potentially increasing to 5 times, although 3 times should be enough to count as "always on" in most games.

Put that in your white room DPS calculations and smoke it!

 

[Esker]

Vuman (Dex/ Wis) OH Monk, +2 Dex, Alert feat.

S: 10, D: 18, C: 14, I: 8, W 16, Ch: 8; Acrobatics +7, Perception +6, others, AC: 17, Initiative +9, HP 38, Move 40', Saves - Str +3, Dex +7 - Staff, shuriken (darts)

Vuman (Str/Con) Champ Fighter, GWM feat, +2 Str.

S: 18, D: 12, C: 16, I: 8, W: 13, Ch: 8; Athletics +7, Perception +4, others. AC: 18 (full plate), Initiative +1, HP 49, Move 30', Saves -Str +7, Con +6

Ok, so rather than involve actual dice rolls, let's work out some average results.

Assume the monk goes first. With 50% to hit, using two staff attacks and two unarmed strikes, they do 16.8 damage on average after factoring in possible crits (fighter is at 32.2). Averaging over number of hits and thus number of successful saves required, they have a 53% chance of being stunned.

Branch 0 (Fighter is stunned -- 53% chance): The monk goes again immediately, with advantage on all attacks. But they likely only have 2 ki left, so as you suggested, we'll suppose they use those to make two more stun attempts. (They might have more ki, as the fighter might have failed their first save, but they also might have fewer, with the fighter saving twice and the monk making a third stun attempt --- they might also have had fewer than two hits and been unable to make two attempts --- we'll say they have 2 and suppose that those alternatives are roughly a wash)

75% chance to hit now, with a total of 2d8+1d6+12 damage on the table --- 19.6 damage on average with the 9.75% chance to crit. On average, the fighter is at 12.6 in this branch, and has about a 54% chance of being re-stunned averaging over 0,1, or 2 attempts, depending on number of hits.

Branch 00 (Fighter is re-stunned -- 29% chance). The fighter goes down without a turn in this branch. The monk has a 29% win probability so far.

Branch 01 (Fighter is stunned the first round and saves the second -- 24% chance) In this scenario the fighter is at 12.6 HP, the monk is at full, and is out of ki (they might not be out of ki, but on average that likely means having had fewer stun chancesthat's probably a worse scenario for them than being out of ki).

Using the -5/+10 or not is pretty much a wash, so we'll assume they don't. 15.2 damage on average, factoring in the expanded crit range. The monk is at 22.8. On a crit, the fighter would get a bonus action attack, but we'll assume they don't take it even if they get it, and instead use second wind, to heal 10.5, back to 23.1. Action surge, for another 15.2, and the monk is on the ropes at 7.6.

At branch 01, the monk is at 7.6 and out of ki, the fighter is at 23.1, and has used action surge and second wind. The monk loses in this branch, because they don't do enough damage this turn to finish off the fighter, and they go down the next round. The fighter is up to a 24% win chance.

Branch 1 (Fighter saves stun attempts in the first round -- 47% chance). The fighter is up, and does 30.4 damage using action surge, with the monk at 7.6. There's a 19% chance the fighter crits, and if they take a bonus action attack they stand a decent chance of finishing off the monk then and there, but let's suppose again that they use second wind, healing from 32.2 to 42.7.

The monk is back up, at 7.6, and two ki remaining. But the HP difference is so big that the monk really needs three turns to finish off the fighter before they get a turn and down the monk. So basically, the monk needs to spread out their ki, making one stun attempt and hoping it sticks so they can do it again the next round. The chances that this works twice in a row are about 9%. But if that happens the monk can pull it out. Otherwise it's the fighter's match. 9% of the 47% in this branch is about 4%. So we'll credit the monk with another 4%, with the other 43% going to the fighter, in addition to the 24% they already had.

END RESULT: Monk wins 33% of the time; Champion wins 67% of the time.

Obviously some things were simplified here, but I tried to account for the biggest swings. It could be the monk could shave off a few more percentage points of win chance if we accounted for all possible stun save patterns, including those where the monk burned through ki more slowly. But I'm doubtful they get to 40% let alone 50%.

 

[Esker]

How is the Rogue getting Sneak Attack? What are the opportunity costs to this...etc, etc...see my prior post regarding a similar assertion to this earlier in this thread.

Rogues can be assumed to have sneak attack almost all the time. If they are at range, they may be able to hide for advantage; if they have a familiar it can use the help action; or they can simply stand back and ready an action until an ally is within 5'; etc. I've played multiple rogues --- getting sneak attack has very rarely been an issue. Though an arcane trickster also has the option of casting a spell instead.

I do as well. Comp Lang is a literal translation, though. The french term for "Orgasm" translates into English as "the little death". Phrases in Russian translated literally into english, sound crazy, as do Spanish Idioms.
Comp Lang is not the Tongues spell

No, it isn't; but IME, reading comes up more often than needing to speak, and the Tongues spell also exists. The monk's ability doesn't even let them read writing; it only applies to spoken language.

You mean that all casters always have a spare 3rd level slot for a Tongues spell?

By 13th level when the monk gets their thing? Yes, it's very likely they have a 3rd level slot.

Can a rogue or fighter cause a creature to automatically fail their STR and DEX Saving Throws?
A Monk stuns an aboleth, the Wizard and Lore Bard both drop Fireballs on it.
Legendary (RE)Actions don't even come into play.

Huh, so you're saying the aboleth takes the full 56 damage from the two fireballs, instead of the 49 or so it would take on average with its -1 DEX save normally? So the stun bought an additional 7 damage? And that's assuming it fails in the first place with its +6 CON save. Meanwhile, unless we're fighting an aboleth at 10th level or higher, the monk probably has a disease now and has to submerge themselves in water every 10 minutes.

You know what's actually useful against an aboleth? The bard casts Faerie Fire, and the fighter archer action surges with sharpshooter to take out about half its hitpoints.

Also based off the Alt Class Features U/A and the Feats U/A.....there is a good chance that all Monks will be able to chose weapons that will become Monk Weapons, and characters of all races will be able to chose a feat that grant Expertise in one skill.

At last... the monk can wield a greatsword... the class is saved!

 

[Esker]

Someone introduced an Eberron rogue with a bat'leth double bladed scimitar as a point of comparison. So, if that is allowed, I will see your Eberron rogue and raise you a Theros monk with the Pious Supernatural Gift, and Nylea as their deity.

Assuming a starting wisdom of 16, they can cast Hunter's Mark three times per long rest from level 1. Potentially increasing to 5 times, although 3 times should be enough to count as "always on" in most games.

Put that in your white room DPS calculations and smoke it!

A supernatural gift is definitely exactly the same as using an Eberron race and feat! But even so, Hunter's Mark is another bonus action! I'm sure it will help a bit, though.

 

[Todd Roybark]

So the stun bought an additional 7 damage?

No the Stun..Took out it's Legendary Actions.
Esker are you stating that causing a creature to fail all STR or DEX Saving Throws is inconsequential?

If they are at range, they may be able to hide for advantage; if they have a familiar it can use the help action; or they can simply stand back and ready an action until an ally is within 5';

In Flatland, what are you hiding behind? No cover means no hiding.
Familiars die fast. Readying actions is poor action economy, in general.
The side with the best use of action economy: action, bonus action, reaction, round after round typically prevails.

Esker, you seem to be arguing to just bicker. Why waste a Tongues spell when the monk has it for free? Even at high levels the 3rd level slot, and Spell Preparation is probably better used on something else then the Tongues spell.

Rary's Telepathic Circle with a monk is an Universal Translator for the group, and only costs you the time for the Ritual spell.

The monk, as a multi-tool type character can contribute great synergistic elements for the PC group to exploit and build off of.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Hunter's Mark is another bonus action!

Only when you switch targets. I would plan on opening with a ranged attack + Hunter's Mark, then close and flurry the marked target until dead. This tactic should also work if you have Hunter's Mark/Hex from a less broken source than Theros.

 

[Esker]

No the Stun..Took out it's Legendary Actions.
Esker are you stating that causing a creature to fail all STR or DEX Saving Throws is inconsequential?

No, it's clearly not inconsequential, but in the example you gave it was pretty underwhelming. The legendary actions bit had nothing to do with the STR/DEX saves; it's the incapacitation, which everybody acknowledges is valuable. The problem is (a) it targets a bad save, (b) it uses up ki fast, (c) it's often worse than a low level spell (in this case it's probably about a wash because we seem to be assuming a single creature encounter, which is pretty ideal for monks --- Tasha's Hideous Laughter is fairly comparable.

In Flatland, what are you hiding behind? No cover means no hiding.

Why are we in flatland?

Familiars die fast. Readying actions is poor action economy, in general.

IME when familiars die it's mostly to environmental hazards, not in combat. Readying an action is fairly efficient for a single-classed rogue in this instance. They weren't going to use their reaction this round anyway, because they are waiting for the enemy to close in, and they do their full turn's worth of damage on a readied attack.

Esker, you seem to be arguing to just bicker. Why waste a Tongues spell when the monk has it for free? Even at high levels the 3rd level slot, and Spell Preparation is probably better used on something else then the Tongues spell.

I'm not saying the caster should use Tongues instead of the monk using their ability; I'm saying replace the monk with literally any other class and it will contribute more. If you replace them with a 13th level pact of the tome Great Old One warlock, say, they can take tongues and comprehend languages on top of their telepathy, as well as a bunch of other utility spells, and combat spells (including Hypnotic Pattern, which is better than stun, Evard's Black Tentacles, which they can combine with repelling blast), and on and on, while also being able to achieve greater damage output when they want to, and from 120' away.

 

[Esker]

Only when you switch targets. I would plan on opening with a ranged attack + Hunter's Mark, then close and flurry the marked target until dead. This tactic should also work if you have Hunter's Mark/Hex from a less broken source than Theros.

How many rounds do you typically spend attacking the same creature? Round 1 you cast the spell (or move it from before), and it's roughly a wash. Round 2 you gain a bit if you're attacking the same creature. By round 3 if it's a frequent occurrence that you're still attacking that same enemy, it sounds like either your party isn't very effective overall, is splitting their damage too much, or your DM needs to design better encounters --- single big enemy encounters are rarely interesting or challenging in 5e. That said, in the occasional "single big enemy encounter", a monk can do reasonably well.

 

[Flamestrike]

Ok, so rather than involve actual dice rolls, let's work out some average results.

Assume the monk goes first. With 50% to hit, using two staff attacks and two unarmed strikes, they do 16.8 damage on average after factoring in possible crits (fighter is at 32.2). Averaging over number of hits and thus number of successful saves required, they have a 53% chance of being stunned.

Branch 0 (Fighter is stunned -- 53% chance): The monk goes again immediately, with advantage on all attacks. But they likely only have 2 ki left, so as you suggested, we'll suppose they use those to make two more stun attempts. (They might have more ki, as the fighter might have failed their first save, but they also might have fewer, with the fighter saving twice and the monk making a third stun attempt --- they might also have had fewer than two hits and been unable to make two attempts --- we'll say they have 2 and suppose that those alternatives are roughly a wash)

75% chance to hit now, with a total of 2d8+1d6+12 damage on the table --- 19.6 damage on average with the 9.75% chance to crit. On average, the fighter is at 12.6 in this branch, and has about a 54% chance of being re-stunned averaging over 0,1, or 2 attempts, depending on number of hits.

Branch 00 (Fighter is re-stunned -- 29% chance). The fighter goes down without a turn in this branch. The monk has a 29% win probability so far.

Branch 01 (Fighter is stunned the first round and saves the second -- 24% chance) In this scenario the fighter is at 12.6 HP, the monk is at full, and is out of ki (they might not be out of ki, but on average that likely means having had fewer stun chancesthat's probably a worse scenario for them than being out of ki).

Using the -5/+10 or not is pretty much a wash, so we'll assume they don't. 15.2 damage on average, factoring in the expanded crit range. The monk is at 22.8. On a crit, the fighter would get a bonus action attack, but we'll assume they don't take it even if they get it, and instead use second wind, to heal 10.5, back to 23.1. Action surge, for another 15.2, and the monk is on the ropes at 7.6.

At branch 01, the monk is at 7.6 and out of ki, the fighter is at 23.1, and has used action surge and second wind. The monk loses in this branch, because they don't do enough damage this turn to finish off the fighter, and they go down the next round. The fighter is up to a 24% win chance.

Branch 1 (Fighter saves stun attempts in the first round -- 47% chance). The fighter is up, and does 30.4 damage using action surge, with the monk at 7.6. There's a 19% chance the fighter crits, and if they take a bonus action attack they stand a decent chance of finishing off the monk then and there, but let's suppose again that they use second wind, healing from 32.2 to 42.7.

The monk is back up, at 7.6, and two ki remaining. But the HP difference is so big that the monk really needs three turns to finish off the fighter before they get a turn and down the monk. So basically, the monk needs to spread out their ki, making one stun attempt and hoping it sticks so they can do it again the next round. The chances that this works twice in a row are about 9%. But if that happens the monk can pull it out. Otherwise it's the fighter's match. 9% of the 47% in this branch is about 4%. So we'll credit the monk with another 4%, with the other 43% going to the fighter, in addition to the 24% they already had.

END RESULT: Monk wins 33% of the time; Champion wins 67% of the time.

Obviously some things were simplified here, but I tried to account for the biggest swings. It could be the monk could shave off a few more percentage points of win chance if we accounted for all possible stun save patterns, including those where the monk burned through ki more slowly. But I'm doubtful they get to 40% let alone 50%.

Is there any reason the Monk isn't taking away the fighters Weapon (or attacking it as its an object) while he's stunned?

Unless he has two great swords he's in a world of hurt when the monk snaps his sword in half.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How many rounds do you typically spend attacking the same creature? Round 1 you cast the spell (or move it from before), and it's roughly a wash. Round 2 you gain a bit if you're attacking the same creature. By round 3 if it's a frequent occurrence that you're still attacking that same enemy, it sounds like either your party isn't very effective overall, is splitting their damage too much, or your DM needs to design better encounters --- single big enemy encounters are rarely interesting or challenging in 5e. That said, in the occasional "single big enemy encounter", a monk can do reasonably well.

Three, typically. I suspect we do more Boss+minions fights than you do. I tend to avoid "lots of weak enemies" fights - fiddly and slow

If you are using your bonus action to move Hunter's Mark 1/3 of the time, then you are burning though your ki at 2/3 of the rate you would otherwise be.